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Cheiron Sound.. need your help!

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Offline maxmartin'sfan

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Cheiron Sound.. need your help!
« on: February 18, 2007, 10:34:37 AM »
hi Everybody!!!
I dont' know if there are songwriter  and producer here..
Because I Need an Advice ...

I'm Trying to make the Cheiron Sound .. I'm Working on This For The moment... But It's hard to find the good sound... I 'm goind to find.. But if Someone can help me.. lol^^
I Need everybody even if you are not songwriter... ^^

Thanks!!!!

Nico

Offline turnaround

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« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2007, 12:39:03 PM »
Oh this is interesting. Do you have a studio?

Are you playing instruments?

I guess the first step would be to analyse the basic structure of the most famous songs and the chord sequences to get into the feeling.

Play around with an alternation and you come up with a melody.

Focus and the chorus and KISS! (Keep it Simple Style)

Would be lovely to hear some of your efforts!
And I liked it..

Offline malcolm hogg

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« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2007, 12:50:20 PM »
you will have to specify a little further............... Most of the cheiron stuff follows a blueprint.......
Gotta go for sunday dinner i will get back to this later..,..
A childrens song, have you listened as they play? There song is love, and the children know the way!  B.Wilson/V.D. Parks. Brian Wilson presents Smile.

Offline maxmartin'sfan

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Cheiron Sound.. need your help!
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2007, 02:21:47 PM »
Hey...

http://www.myspace.com/popsoul

Here's my Myspace Music...

^^
I 'm just  looking for to make a song with the cheiron sound...
For example in this song of Partsix "what's that sound"...
in the beginning of the song .. when the boys sing the chorus..
The 3 chords use on the rythm have a particular sound...

http://www.myspace.com/partsixgirlz

thanks for your help! lol ^^
I Apologize for my english!!

Offline turnaround

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Cheiron Sound.. need your help!
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2007, 03:10:16 PM »
Interesting I am listening to your songs right now. With which program do you make them?

According the specific Cheiron sound I think it's pretty hard to describe it. But I think they use "hits" (like orchestra hits). Short accentuated sounds. It's difficult to explain, lots of syntheziser gimmicks, I hardly hear any real instruments.
And I liked it..

Offline maxmartin'sfan

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« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2007, 03:49:23 PM »
There's no real instruments... or just the guitar.....
...
Yes they use "hits" .. I Used a short violin hits.. but now I 'm going  to looking for a good sound for my synthetizer! ^^

Thanks to help me!

For My Music I use a lot of differents program.. The Main Program is Cubase... I need to work very hard again..


Thanks

Offline malcolm hogg

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« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2007, 03:51:48 PM »
Hits is spot on. I'm 99%sure that they make there own 'hits'. there are alot of different elements with in them. There is percussion, like you say an orchestral punch element, a brass effect. the 'hits' thet use for bsb differ to the ones they use for britney, which differ again from the ones the use for westlife etc etc. If you listen to the reworked version of when you're looking like that, that is just crammed full of those little 'hits'. I think the dynamics in that bit of music are amazing. I don't think it is the best 'cheiron' song by a long way, but it is deffinately what i consider to be one of the top 5 bits of pop music the world has ever heard. Over protected is another good example of the use of a large ammount of dynamics.
The dynamics obviously give the songs a lot of punchy little feels in to them, but thet also mark when another element of music comes in or goes out of the track.
The 'sound', as turnaround says can't be described. But the blueprint can be worked out.
to me one of the clearest point to me that a song was 'cheiron' was always ythe rythmn. The high-hat closing right before every fourth snare beat, that was always the initial give away.
When i get time, that will be the very start point of my attempt to make my own cheiron styled stuff.
A couple of years a go i spent a couple of weeks listening to various cheiron tracks and analysed the structure.
I'm not saying that i have it figured out totally. And no human ears would ever beable to disect cheiron (or most modern pop) fully. But the songs i analysed and tried to break down all followed the same format. I made notes on various things. Ie, there is always an introductory lyric which expands into the fisrt verse, then chorus 1, verse2, chorus2, then that always leads into the middle eight. straight after middle eight you hava the key change and verse three then the chorus is repeated 2 or 3 times. Nearly all of the cheiron stuff was like that. I also had notes on where instrument came in and out, i lost them and from memory it was quite complexed so i cant really recall much of it (i'm gutted about losing them !!).
But within the tracks there is always at least 2 live guitars and also usually the bass too. For me this element of live musicianship gives it so so much. Makes it human, and adds stuff that no synth or keyboard could ever do.
If you have 5.1 home cinema try listening to your favourite cheiron songs on that and unplug the main speakers just so you hear the satelitte small speakers. the latter cheiron stuff seems to all be mastered into 5:1, and the 'hits', dynamics and effects that come out of those speakers are absolutely mind blowing. I've listened to drowning like that a hundred times and each time my ear picks up something it hadn't heard before.
I know i have rambled on here, but in short, to your original question.
I think if you are looking for the cheiron sound you will have to go that far into it.
If you make your own music i'm sure you can find soft synths without too much hassle. after that its upto you to put them together the right way.
i guess its kinda like building a car. you can get the parts easily enough, you just gotta work out how they all go together.
Since i was a child personally i have always found that the best way to find out how something goes together is by first taking it apart.
I think any of us trying to emulate the 'cherion' sound will ultimately be disapointed, but whatever your musical ability, i think it will be a really enjoyable and interesting challenge.
anyone care to add anything to any of the above?!?
A childrens song, have you listened as they play? There song is love, and the children know the way!  B.Wilson/V.D. Parks. Brian Wilson presents Smile.

Offline turnaround

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« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2007, 04:17:02 PM »
Wow this was an absolutely interesting read. Thanks for sharing. As I also wrote songs for a while I often tried to analyse the songs and the structure, arrangements etc, and the Swedish songs have so often this special formula that always worked so well and we love.

I have experienced that the songs where you always hear some new things out, like Malcolm said, and you even after the 100th listen still discover a new detail, are the songs you never get tired.

What is an essential part of a Cheiron song is that the chorus after the Middle 8 is often "inverted". So the lyrics are just in a different order and the melody slightly differs from the original. Like in "Oops..." or in "Stronger".

Characteristic for Cheiron is also the use of the background vocals I think. They have such excellent voices like Jeanette Olsson who has such a great voice that you can't believe she has "only" been a background vocalist for so many years. In "I want it that way" the background vocals are a essential part of the song. The lead singer sings like in a dialogue with the choir and parts of them are then unisono. To find the perfect mixture to make this conversation vivid and interesting is also a thing Cheiron stands for in my opinion. Also so important in this "inverted" chorus  thing I wrote about above. In Jessica Folckers "How will I know" I think the background vocals in the inverted chorus and in the end are just overwhelming.

What I wanted to say I think the main difference between Backstreet Boys sound and the Westlife is that the Cheiron songs for BSB were far more synthesizer flavoured than the Westlife ones.

"Fool again" for example wouldn't have worked with BSB I think.

I don't know if this was by any means useuful but it's just interesting to think about all this stuff!
And I liked it..

Offline malcolm hogg

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« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2007, 04:37:57 PM »
Just listening to shape of my heart, and i would say that doesn't follow the inversion thing you are saying.
Not sure if you are meaning inversion just lyrically or chordally or both? Certainly to me, the middle eight is really important to the flow of the music. Some producers deviate too far from the general chord pattern of the song, but not cheiron!!! Im pretty sure that the middle eight is just a different pattern of the same chords that they use for the verse and chorus. Ie for instance they have 4 chords and they put them in one order for the verse, a different order for the chorus and a different order for the middle 8. Usually, the only time anything alse is in there is right in the last 2 bars where an augmented chord takes you right to the last measure.
This is definately a topic we can all get our teeth in to, i can see my working week being hampered by this!!!!!!
Yes 100% agree, bsb songs wouldn't work for westlife etc. they definately had segregated sounds unique to each artist they were working for.
But whoever the song was for, the song definatley followed the formula.
I imagine that they were like a bunch of mathematicians studying and working on some theory, and eventually they discovered what they were searching for. And that was the equation for perfect pop. I can almost imagine that somewhere max has this chalk board from a school room with an algebraic equation on it!!! :)
Back to this later!!!!!!!!!
A childrens song, have you listened as they play? There song is love, and the children know the way!  B.Wilson/V.D. Parks. Brian Wilson presents Smile.

Offline turnaround

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« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2007, 04:51:01 PM »
Yes you are so right :D

And there indeed have been some people who wrote a programm which analysed songs and then made an prediction if it will become a hit or not. But that was in general for all the hit songs.

Concerning "Shape of my heart", it also has this inversion in it.
I mean this part, it's between the middle 8 and the next real chorus.


Im lookin back on things Ive done
I never wanna play the same old part

Ill keep you in the dark
Now let me show you the shape of my heart



Chordswise I found this one here..
With the inversion the keychange happens

as the normal chorus was like this

Code: [Select]
           D                       G
Looking back on the things I've done
        A              Fm
I was trying to be someone
             Bm
I played my part
                   E
And kept you in the dark
          G               A           D
Now let me show you the shape of my heart



Inversion
Code: [Select]
E                        A
I'm looking back on things I've done
B                      G#m
I never wanna play the same old part
C#m                     F
And keep you in the dark
A                 B                E
Now let me show you the shape of my heart


And the chorus following

Code: [Select]
E                        A
Looking back on the things I've done
        B              G#m
I was trying to be someone
            C#m
I played my part
                   F#
And kept you in the dark
          A           B              E
Now let me show you the shape of my heart
And I liked it..

Offline maxmartin'sfan

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« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2007, 05:34:00 PM »
waoo..lol ^^


I'll read it Tonight.. I'll be back the next week!
thanks For everything!

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« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2007, 07:05:28 PM »
Quote from: "malcolm hogg"
But the songs i analysed and tried to break down all followed the same format. I made notes on various things. Ie, there is always an introductory lyric which expands into the fisrt verse, then chorus 1, verse2, chorus2, then that always leads into the middle eight. straight after middle eight you hava the key change and verse three then the chorus is repeated 2 or 3 times. Nearly all of the cheiron stuff was like that.

True what you're saying malcolm.
I remember when I met Jonas Berggren of Ace of Base in his studio in Gothenburg, we had a little chat about the music, and I remember him saying EVERY good pop song has to be of this structure (intro, verse 1, chorus, verse 2, chorus, bridge/keychange, chorus, chorus, chorus...)

Writing and producing about 98% of the Ace of Base hits, I'd say he knows what he's talking about! :-P

Offline malcolm hogg

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« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2007, 07:11:16 PM »
Turnaround. I'm sorry, i get you now! :D  You are right!!!
I think you are right about the vocals side of things too. Again, like the live guitars and bass, it adds human touch. I think also they are clever in the way that they have after the middle 8 2 choruses, as you rightfully say with lyrical inversions. With the likes of bsb, (who i rate as infinately better vocalists than westlife) it gives 2 choruses of time for the likes of aj, nick and brian to go off into a much different vocal angle. Its almost like the song is over and they are improvising and adlibbing until the end of the track. Its like everything that needed to be said  and heard clearly in the song has been said, now its time for fun. During the main part of the song the lead and backing vocalists never ever stray far at all away from the molody or the regular scale that accompanies the key of the song. But those last 2 or 3 choruses for me are delightful, it all sounds so free form, like the cheiron guys just say "on those last 2 choruses, just let go of the reigns and sing allover the scales however you want".
Shape of my heart is a brilliant song, for me by that stage i think they were expanding the magic formula.
Theres many more chords in there. theres 9ths, suspended4ths, 7ths. I'm not sure what the key is, but i'm sure they used every chord in that key in s.o.m.h.

so has anyone tried the 5:1 thing???
A childrens song, have you listened as they play? There song is love, and the children know the way!  B.Wilson/V.D. Parks. Brian Wilson presents Smile.

Offline turnaround

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« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2007, 07:22:22 PM »
I would love to try it but am mostly listening on my CD speakers and don't have any 5.1 system! A pity really!  :cry:
And I liked it..

Offline malcolm hogg

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« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2007, 07:33:03 PM »
me too, i go to my neighbour and we listen on his. i will get a 5:1 system for my home soon i think. it really is amazing, you hear so many tiny parts.
A childrens song, have you listened as they play? There song is love, and the children know the way!  B.Wilson/V.D. Parks. Brian Wilson presents Smile.