How Do Max And Shellback Create Memorable Melodies?

[Raul_esp]

This thread has gone a bit off-topic, but I just wanted to post a songwriting tutorial video I made a couple of years ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykYGXMURUew

It's my take on how Max might write a song, and has helped me write (what I think) are some good melodies. I won't make the mistake of claiming that they're objectively good for fear of derailing the thread again

The video is very interesting , I agree it's all a good song need , the melody is the most important.

[sweetmelody]

Wanted to bring back this great thread. I still am not sure what is meant by intervals since I don't know how to read or write music and I have no idea about music theory. But I am eager to learn what this means! Can someone please explain? I also keep hearing about "counting syllables" and that's apparently a trick used by Max, Luke and all the writers they mentor. What do you reckon that means?

Also, wanted to ask if there is anyone hear who is able to write out the melody notes of some of the biggest Max hit choruses to study? That would be the ultimate way I think to understand Max's genius a little more! Perhaps that is what is meant by intervals? I dunno, but I really would love to explore this further! 

[AlexanderLaBrea]

Intervals are the "distances" between two notes. For instance, the interval between A and A# is of course one half step etc.
Counting syllables are most commonly used as a reference between two groups of notes if you will.

You - make - me - feel - like - I'm - li - vin' - a (9 syllables)
Teen - age - dream - the - way - you - turn - me - on (9 syllables)

This emphazises the melody by keeping its consistency.

I like the enthusiasm! But looking at sheet music of Max-choruses won't give you any real information. I would love it if there was such a note-specific formula to hit-making, but unfortunately it's not 100% science. There are small tips and trix up his sleeve that is more easily found by just listening to his biggest tunes, not "looking" at them. Listen for how he arranges notes. Short phrases, longer phrases etc.

[sweetmelody]

Thanks for the reply!

So the syllable thing is just about the number of lyrics in a line, right? Not about anything specifically in the melody?

And if I understand correctly, based on what you defined as intervals, the thing that was described earlier in this thread had to do with specific patterns of intervals used by Max? For example, jumping from the 1 to the 3, or from the 5 to the 2?

I do agree with your last statement, but I think it would be interesting to also visualize these little tricks. At least that would help me better understand it. :-)

PS - Can you elaborate on what you mean by "how he arranges notes. Short phrases, longer phrases etc." Is there an example?

[j.fco.morales]

I think his toplining skills have evolved.

It's about many things: the syllabes thing makes sense in his newest compositions.

In many of his songs the melody of the chorus starts in some part of the last bar of the verse, before the first of the chorus.

[AlexanderLaBrea]

Yes, but then again some of his best choruses (now and before) starts on the 2nd beat of the chorus or later, so it's definitely not some sort of recurring theme in his songs. "Break Free" and "Get Another Boyfriend" being two examples.

As far as intervals, I'd say no, there are no specific pattern. As 99% of hit pop songs are written in standard triad chord-shapes, meaning that you're gonna find tonics, thirds and fifths a lot. I have myself tried to find if he favors to land on like, the minor third whenever the minor chord hits (a lot of the times in the 3rd bar considering the classic C, G, Am, F form) but it changes from song to song.

If you feel like looking at the sheet music, then by all means do it! It will not hurt of course Sheet music for his biggest hits are easily accessable if you google it.

Yeah. Try Teenage Dream for example which is sort of a "perfectly written" pop song. Note that the first part of the chorus is sort of short staccato type notes/words and the next group of notes are eight notes in a row.

You - Make - Me     feellikeI'mlivinga
Teen - Age - Dream     thewayyouturnmeon

If you understand where I'm going? Dotted 4ths going into 8ths

"Raise Your Glass":

(So raise your) Glass - When - You - Are - Wrong       Inalltherightways
                       All - My - Under - Dogs       Wewillneverbeneverbe

Etc. It creates ear-appealing rhythmic variations at the same time as the melody is consistent in it's form. And note the "lift" as she sings "underdogs", which is sort of a melodic climax over the minor chord. Chords being G, D, C, C, Em, D.

[sweetmelody]

Now THAT is some great info Alexander! 

The Teenage Dream and Raise Your Glass comparison really highlights something interesting. I could talk about this stuff all day!

[sweetmelody]

So I guess the rest of it boils down to: talent, hard work, not stopping until something is perfect, and experience. Amongst many other things...

[Voodoo]

all great stuff here people!

What I'm curious about is how fast they write melodies. Ive read in an interview that max says "music should be inspiring and fun."
One of the members on this forum had the pleasure to work with max and said he "works UBER fast." Yet they describe songs taking days, sometimes weeks to finish. As I'm sure some of you have experienced, writing a melody and re-writing and re-writing over and over begins to be anything but fun. In fact it becomes un-inspiring and completely stressful... it's almost like you walked in the forest so deep that now, you don't know which way you came in and which way youre going.

So spending a week on a melody alone would be insane.

So that leads me to beleive that they must be writing melodies relatively fast. In an inspired, fun state. The rest of the week or two weeks is production, lyrics, finishing touches, composition.

My question is... how long? What's the situation like? Do they take a lot of breaks in between sessions? Do they listen to inspiring music to get ideas? If an idea comes out and it's good, do they say "great idea, lets move on!" or do they say "great idea, lets see if we can top it with a better one."

[AlexanderLaBrea]

I think you're spot on about the process. There is no reason to believe that it takes more than a day, maybe half a day of intensive writing to finish the melodies for a song. Changing a notes length or whatever in a later stage doesn't count in my book.
Typically the sessions that these top producer/songwriters have are kind of short and intense, with Katy etc. maybe being an exception with Max/Luke/Bonnie/Katy basically doing the whole album (Teenage/Prism). They may have taken their time a little bit more, but the songwriting process remains the same. When writing with an artist, they may only have 1 or 2 days when flown in where they need to get a lot done in a short period of time. It was specified in an interview somewhere when someone had a week long session with Max and somebody else, how many songs where written. And it was, at least one song a day. I believe it was 10 or something.

When 2, 3 or maybe even 4 or more world class writers get in a room together and jam, topline or whatever, there are a lot of good ideas flowing which makes the writing process really fast. When the basic melodies are down, then more time can be spent on lyrics and production, even arrangements as you said.
As far as "inspiring and fun", I'm very sure that in case they get writers block on a specific song, they'll leave it for a while and work on something else!
I know that Benny Blanco listens to a lot of music in the beginning hour of sessions to get in the mode inspiration wise. How Max does I'm not sure, but seeing as most artists sort of have a vision of what they want to sound like they probably listen to some reference tracks. When Katy was doing Prism, the idea was to make a record inspired by Robyn, so they probably listened to her, and with a track like "Walking on Air" they definitely listened to "Finally" and other 90's dance tracks.

[sweetmelody]

I suppose you may be right, but I've read somewhere a quote by Savan Kotecha and he says that they work on something sometimes for weeks and months. He specifically mentioned it being the "Swedish way." Since he studied under Max and works with him a lot I figured he picked it up from him.

[AlexanderLaBrea]

I'm sure they do sometimes! But I think that it's probably a matter of them putting some songs away. Let's say they have a great chorus but get stuck on the verse melody. They'll probably pause and revisit that song maybe weeks later, write a cool verse but realizing they need to change the chorus accordingly and those kinds of things. I think the writing of melodies, most of the time, is a relatively quick process, but production, lyrics, arrangement and "final touches" can be a really drawn out process to reach perfection.
Of course impossible to say unless we ask Max But it's like they say, some songs take 15 minutes to write, some take a lot longer.

[sweetmelody]

You know, I think you're right. A lot of songwriters talk about songs just coming to them as if it where a gift from the heavens above. We do know that Max and a lot of writers will record melody ideas they have on a voice recorder, but we all have read I'm sure that Max only uses 1 out of say 300 ideas (not sure how exaggerated that number is, but I think the point is made). So the melodies must be flowing out. I suppose it's the editing process afterwards that takes things over the top. But the original idea is probably quick.

Anyway, it's so interesting to examine the songwriting process. You can study guys like Savan Kotecha, Carl Falk, Rami Yacoub and they all have very similar styles to Max. And now that Luke has created his own team in LA it seems like all his writers are showing to Max qualities as well. Things like that just confirm that Max is a special writer who just knows exactly what to do to make a great song. Why else would so many people copy him?

[AlexanderLaBrea]

Yeah, I mean, Max has had 18 nr. 1 hits as of right now. But if you look at closer: Shellback is 100% a product of Max, Dr. Luke had Max as a mentor for a long time before standing on his own feet as the successful popwriter he is now. Benny Blanco is in turn taught by Luke. Rami and Max developed pretty much the same "formula" for pop hits together, and Carl Falk is a product of Rami. Ilya - Max, Tove Lo - Max, Richard/Johan/Peter from Carolina Liar - Max, Bonnie McKee - Max/Luke. The list just goes on. All roads lead to Max Martin, and if you look at it that way, just count how many nr. 1's or top 10 hits are directly connected to the Max Martin school of pop writing.

[sweetmelody]

Yeah, I mean, Max has had 18 nr. 1 hits as of right now. But if you look at closer: Shellback is 100% a product of Max, Dr. Luke had Max as a mentor for a long time before standing on his own feet as the successful popwriter he is now. Benny Blanco is in turn taught by Luke. Rami and Max developed pretty much the same "formula" for pop hits together, and Carl Falk is a product of Rami. Ilya - Max, Tove Lo - Max, Richard/Johan/Peter from Carolina Liar - Max, Bonnie McKee - Max/Luke. The list just goes on. All roads lead to Max Martin, and if you look at it that way, just count how many nr. 1's or top 10 hits are directly connected to the Max Martin school of pop writing.

Incredible!