Hey Every1
How Do You Think Max And Shellback Create Memorable Melodies....Do you think they hum the melody then begin creating the instrumental around the melody? or possible guitar/piano. Would love to learn about this process as i want to make my melodies sound stronger, catch etc
Thanks Yall
There is definitely a formula of sorts I'm sure of it, because so many of the Cheiron guys can pull it off time and time again. All I know is that Max comes up with the melody first, before chords etc. He apparently carries around a dictaphone and records any ideas as soon as they come to him, so he said years ago anyway. I can't remember exactly, but I seem to think someone said he would come up with hundreds of ideas in a short amount of time (like say a week or so), so maybe the key is to just write like crazy until you come up with the goods. I know with my own writing, I can be a bit over critical sometimes and compare everything to someone like Max's work. But that's the best way for me to come up with work I'm happy with. Only problem is, sometimes it can take months of frustration and starting over. If there is a formula behind writing a hit on the spot, then I want to know about it too! :D
This is a very interesting topic to me, because to I used to write songs from chords first (piano) , until I realized I wasn't concentrating enough on the melody itself. I changed my whole process when I started analyzing melodies of early Max/Luke songs technically, and discovered that there are certain melody intervals they used over and over. It's no accident-- they work. Then I found that those same intervals are used in zillions of pop songs going way back.....there's certain of them that just work-- they make the strongest impact on listeners. If you take say 10 melodies you love of hit songs and analyze them (just melodies alone) you'll start to make these connections, and then you can use them yourself-- without thinking about it too much. And if you notice, those guys use very common chord progressions for the most part-- it's the melody that makes the songs so great. Most recent example of this is where Ke$ha is whistling just the melody of "Die Young" on the subway. You can tell it'll be great song from the melody alone :-)
Thanks Joshua + George.
Awesome info.
@ Joshua
I think its great that you are comparing your works with the great Max. I submitted to a professional songwriter once and the first thing she noticed was the melody and absolutely loved it. She said it could become a smash but re-work the drum arrangement. But what i find difficulty is creating melody, i suppose good melodies just happen without me making the effort of creating a great melody. Savan Kotecha says you should always A - B your tracks/songs with stuff on the charts. The songwriter i submitted to also said the same thing.
Heres a video of Savan saying compare stuff : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM4GYL8WNeM
@ George
Im actually gonna spend some time analyzing melodies created by Max/Luke now. I also start on chords first but now i shall focus on meldy first.
Quote from: georg_e on November 10, 2012, 05:15:46 PM
I used to write songs from chords first (piano)
I write at the piano too and have always written chords first, I still do really, though like you guys I'm trying to focus on melody first as much as I can now. I tend to just play around with chords I like, and sing nonsense until something good comes of it. George, that's great that you're picking up connections in melodies, I do exactly the same with chord progressions, almost subconsciously. But strangely I've never even considered looking for common melodies, I need to start doing that. I know not everyone would agree, but to me the best songs have the combination of amazing melody
and chords, and so often I hear one without the other and it never really works for me. Max never lets me down in either department.
Adam, thanks for the link, what an awesome video... I'm gonna watch the rest of his series. I didn't even know he had a YouTube channel! It's so true though, if you're not up to par with what's out there commercially, there's not much point. Same goes for production too obviously, listening and imitating is so important.
Great topic! :)
The Million Dollar Question, right?!
You can definitely find traits and go-to techniques that they (and the RX Songs guys) go for when trying to make a hook. At the moment, for song verses they seem to like going for a repeated phrase at the end of each line (Taylor Swift's 'I Knew You Were Trouble', the new Ke$ha track 'C'Mon' - how many awesome people involved in that one, by the way).
I agree that the top line melody is the most important thing - if it wasn't there wouldn't be so many hits that still sound new and interesting despite having the same basic chord structure. As I believe Dr. Luke has said, though, if you wanna test yourself you make a song with a regular, done-1000-times chord structure because it demands something "stellar" to go over the top of it. If you can though, I guess it can't hurt if you try and come up with a great-sounding instrumental in the first place. However, then you don't wanna be *too* original or left-field though - it is a mass appeal music industry we're talking about here... man, lots of things to consider! ;)
Hey growapear, some awesome points you've made there, really spot on! Yeah it's surely impossible to have a catchy chord progression nowadays that isn't unoriginal, but I do like Luke's challenge of starting with something obvious and then focusing on a killer melody. I struggle to work on a melody without over thinking the chords at the same time, I'm just so used to focusing on them. They're the first thing I listen to in any new song I hear. So when writing I usually feel like I'm giving both melody and chords only 50% because I'm playing around until both work well together. Argh! I guess my best bet is to come up with the best melody I can, then focus on whatever good chord progression works best, seeings as though I feel confident enough in that area.
It's the melody - lyrics left alone. Which is adapted to the chord progression if needed. You instantly notice how good the tones (chords/melody) fit together when you play any of these tracks on a piano. They all (mostly) sound very open. This by the way is also a reason why their tracks can sound so full. Not talking engineer-wise here but if you compose properly everything you add simply adds something in a harmonical way without eating up space from another tones region.
@georg_e
I would like to hear more what intervalls you are talking about? I can see some common stuff but Max uses so many different stuff.
Let's share some more information about this!! Because this is what makes you stand out. There are a lot of track makers out there but the one who can topline hits is golden! If you work in a team everyone has his strength it maybe works out being a ok-topliner but if you're not then topline writing is especially important.
^ ^ ^
LG........The intervals.......it's like a secret code, haha :-) No, seriously though I'll say this, and then you can discover them for yourself: Analyze just the melodies alone of the following songs and you'll have most of them...listen for the key parts, and then think of how many other songs by these guys (Max/Luke) use them. Reason I'm using these songs is because those are the ones where I made the connections......
1) Since U Been Gone 2) Everything I'm Not (Veronicas) 3) Behind These Hazel Eyes 4) Better Than I Know Myself (Adam Lambert) 5) C'mon (new Ke$ha song) 6) Last Friday Night (Katy Perry) 7) Til The World Ends (Britney)
Some of these songs share the same intervals, others just illustrate one in particular......
Quote from: Joshua on November 20, 2012, 11:52:35 AM
Hey growapear, some awesome points you've made there, really spot on! Yeah it's surely impossible to have a catchy chord progression nowadays that isn't unoriginal, but I do like Luke's challenge of starting with something obvious and then focusing on a killer melody. I struggle to work on a melody without over thinking the chords at the same time, I'm just so used to focusing on them. They're the first thing I listen to in any new song I hear. So when writing I usually feel like I'm giving both melody and chords only 50% because I'm playing around until both work well together. Argh! I guess my best bet is to come up with the best melody I can, then focus on whatever good chord progression works best, seeings as though I feel confident enough in that area.
Glad you found my points interesting! :)
When I'm having a good creative day, chords and a melody can just hit me even without an instrument in hand. I think that's how I deal with using basic chords; by creating a melody simultaneously so that I don't just begin with a basic chord structure and ditch it because it sounds boring. I would say that's almost crucial, in fact, because I could never see myself open up a recording, recording/ playing in an overused chord progression and think that I have the basis for a new song.
Quote from: georg_e on November 22, 2012, 12:19:08 AM
^ ^ ^
LG........The intervals.......it's like a secret code, haha :-) No, seriously though I'll say this, and then you can discover them for yourself: Analyze just the melodies alone of the following songs and you'll have most of them...listen for the key parts, and then think of how many other songs by these guys (Max/Luke) use them. Reason I'm using these songs is because those are the ones where I made the connections......
1) Since U Been Gone 2) Everything I'm Not (Veronicas) 3) Behind These Hazel Eyes 4) Better Than I Know Myself (Adam Lambert) 5) C'mon (new Ke$ha song) 6) Last Friday Night (Katy Perry) 7) Til The World Ends (Britney)
Some of these songs share the same intervals, others just illustrate one in particular......
Haha... secret code. But just some days ago I heard a swedish writer saying it once again. There are many formulas like i.e. production-wise: everytime a new part of the song enters add something interesting and tweak it a little bit. So I was not really talking about 'the secret intervalls' hahaha but
more of the combination of the melody/chords. Take a look at the bass note and the melody. Look what happens at the start of a chorus and the end ;)
Loving the discussion here, it's really making me rethink a few things. The writing process for me is a bit of a hit and miss type of thing. It's like many writers say, a good song can appear at any random time and they wont know where it came from. Almost like it already existed and you just happened to stumble across it in all your fooling around. But to sit down with a formula to start off with, what a great head start. I'm guessing there'd still be a good amount of experimenting and throwing ideas around, but it's got to be better than waiting days, weeks, months (hopefully not years) at a time to get started on something half decent.
EDIT: I just wanted to add that with all this talk about the degree of importance of chords vs melody... here's a good example to me of a strong chorus that would be nothing without it's killer chord progression. So I think it can work both ways. Obviously though, having a strong melody with a strong progression under it, you can't go wrong.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elueA2rofoo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elueA2rofoo)
I actually find it really easy to come up with great catchy melodies , can do a new one in like 5-10 minutes ( the hook) if i really wanted too.
hear for yourself:
http://www.wavescapestudios.co.uk/audio.htm
I don't mean to brag but I'm not exactly winning a grammy for it !
All the chart stuff is actually way too SIMPLE for me that's why I like to have just original, great ideas rather than boring , uninspired stuff ! Ultimately when you just have fun and get into the process unihibited is where you make the best stuff in my opinion. Just do it your way and be a pioneer , experimenting is definitely the way to go cos you never know what idea leads to something cool ! But analyzing other songs too much may just make you really good at being an emulator rather than an innovator. There's nothing wrong with being an emulator in fact I think the industry prefers writers/producers who can just deliver some updated version of an already done thing , so there's creating for the industry and creating for the music !
I would have envied Cheiron when they were producing for the likes of NSync and BSB cos those songs are truly great and inspiring but now I really think they are wasting their talent IMHO because they are having to water down their ability so it is " commercially " viable in today's Pop market. All the money in the world would never make me feel better about that just from a pure musicianship point of view !!
The access to immense equipment such as synths, mixers , samplers , a host of plugins and everything else under the sun , technologically more advanced should equate to sonically much higher level music but in fact I find music from before sonically more superior and more innovative in the way they created , used and applied sounds ! Sometimes I can hear the computer cheapness cos it sounds like not many HARDWARE synths are being used !!
I bet Max used to spend weeks on a song , getting it perfect in the 90s and he probably only spends a matter of days now and unfortunately for me that's very hearable. Shame , such a talented musician wasting his skill on SIMPLE stuff !! Don't mean to offend anyone but I don't get paid to agree with everyone's opinion either.
In a way I'm glad i'm not in the industry because I am FREE to let my ideas flow without rules and obligations and A&R individuals getting involved who happen to be NON-MUSICIANS half the time having such a strong influence on the music. I am also FREE to work with lots of unsigned artists and not stuck with only the artists that get pushed my way through X factor or some pop star show. Then if I said I don't feel inspired by this artist the label would think twice about sending me another and you could worry about not getting paid the next time. Politics of course , always politics. But when you are not worrying about really being paid you don't care so I could simply say no and move on to artists that I really care about and feel the energy with to do something great ! In a way I feel some pity for them because maybe they are trapped in that situation and can't walk out so easily because they have " big " names and are accountable to more people than themselves.
Funny how a different perspective changes everything ;)
Quote from: Neal on December 17, 2012, 01:00:35 AM
I actually find it really easy to come up with great catchy melodies , can do a new one in like 5-10 minutes ( the hook) if i really wanted too.
hear for yourself:
http://www.wavescapestudios.co.uk/audio.htm
I don't mean to brag but I'm not exactly winning a grammy for it !
All the chart stuff is actually way too SIMPLE for me that's why I like to have just original, great ideas rather than boring , uninspired stuff ! Ultimately when you just have fun and get into the process unihibited is where you make the best stuff in my opinion. Just do it your way and be a pioneer , experimenting is definitely the way to go cos you never know what idea leads to something cool ! But analyzing other songs too much may just make you really good at being an emulator rather than an innovator. There's nothing wrong with being an emulator in fact I think the industry prefers writers/producers who can just deliver some updated version of an already done thing , so there's creating for the industry and creating for the music !
I would have envied Cheiron when they were producing for the likes of NSync and BSB cos those songs are truly great and inspiring but now I really think they are wasting their talent IMHO because they are having to water down their ability so it is " commercially " viable in today's Pop market. All the money in the world would never make me feel better about that just from a pure musicianship point of view !!
The access to immense equipment such as synths, mixers , samplers , a host of plugins and everything else under the sun , technologically more advanced should equate to sonically much higher level music but in fact I find music from before sonically more superior and more innovative in the way they created , used and applied sounds ! Sometimes I can hear the computer cheapness cos it sounds like not many HARDWARE synths are being used !!
I bet Max used to spend weeks on a song , getting it perfect in the 90s and he probably only spends a matter of days now and unfortunately for me that's very hearable. Shame , such a talented musician wasting his skill on SIMPLE stuff !! Don't mean to offend anyone but I don't get paid to agree with everyone's opinion either.
In a way I'm glad i'm not in the industry because I am FREE to let my ideas flow without rules and obligations and A&R individuals getting involved who happen to be NON-MUSICIANS half the time having such a strong influence on the music. I am also FREE to work with lots of unsigned artists and not stuck with only the artists that get pushed my way through X factor or some pop star show. Then if I said I don't feel inspired by this artist the label would think twice about sending me another and you could worry about not getting paid the next time. Politics of course , always politics. But when you are not worrying about really being paid you don't care so I could simply say no and move on to artists that I really care about and feel the energy with to do something great ! In a way I feel some pity for them because maybe they are trapped in that situation and can't walk out so easily because they have " big " names and are accountable to more people than themselves.
Funny how a different perspective changes everything ;)
Everything I'm saying is not meant to bash anybody or similiar. Simply talking from a professional point of view.
I listened 15 secs to your first two tracks and have too say we're talking completely different levels here. I switched after 15 secs because the melody didn't grab my attention and the sound wasn't that catchy.
The reason why someone is not in the music game is simply this one....:
...because you didn't put out some freaking awesome and super catchy music. Do you really think if someone releases super stunning tracks which get airplay and are shared with todays technology and social media possibilities will not be successful if he tries to get in there?
I've seen any part of the music industry and can say that if you have a hit then no one can mess with it. It's that simple.
I agree with you that people spent more time on mixing in the 90s then now but the point that they are trapped in that situation i is simply unlogical. For example Max worked on albums sold over 300 millions times. Add it up and you see, he wouldn't have to do a thing for hundreds of years.
Yeah, I had a listen too but didn't want to comment in case my comments came across a bit negative. But if I can put it all under the banner of constructive criticism then hopefully Neal wont take any offence, because I certainly don't mean any. :) The handful of tracks I listened to were all so similar that they could have been blurred into one long song. The chord progressions were nearly all identical, the melodies were usually very alike and overall the production was pretty much all the same. It sounded dated and sorry to say, fairly amateur. Again, I'm only saying this to be constructive, and I'd expect the same honest judgement of my own work. You can lose perspective of your songs because you're so close to them. I listen back to some of my old stuff and wonder how at the time I believed it was so good.
I think a lot of aspiring pop producers are making the mistake of assuming that a great pop track can be thrown together with a few good ingredients and not a lot of effort. But it usually always results in songs that evoke no emotion whatsoever, they feel flat and uninspired. You have to be so self critical that you don't stop until your track is up there with the best. Maybe the problem is being able to judge when it's "up there". But it has to be special, it has to have that something that grabs you. I do believe you can fluke a hit, but to keep generating them over the years takes hard, hard work.
I also agree that the older Cheiron work stood out from the crowd more so than what some of the team are putting out today. But sometimes I wonder how much of that comes down to my own nostalgia. I'm honestly not sure. But I certainly appreciate the writing of the earlier work more than I do a lot of the new stuff.
Priceless information here!!!!! Thanks to all who have contributed....really appreciate y'all.
I believe that, in general, if you manage to create something really repetitive that still somehow does not feel boring then it's probably going to work. For pop music that is so much better than creating a complex melody that, while it may be beautiful, is not as easy to remember.
So I try to keep my mindset on SIMPLE, sometimes repeating a short melody or just the same note over and over again. The tricky part is keeping it from boring the listener. This can be done by changing it up in places, or create a melody that, when repeated over a chord sequence clashes in a "good" way on some chords. Which clashes are "good" and which are "bad" is somewhat subjective but I have mental notes of these that I try to apply.
So, having the right amount of "good" clashes while keeping it really repetitive is usually the key, I think.
I can give some examples if someone is still reading this thread :o
^ ^ ^
Yes, some examples please :-) I know what you mean about them "good clashes", love those. I figured it out once, but there's one in either the verse or chorus (forgot which) of "Scream'' (Usher) on one of the "Ooops baby, baby" lines, and to go back to a golden oldie, there's one on end of the verses of "4Ever" (Veronicas) where the line is "but I don't even care", "I just don't even care" etc. Things like that which are just a little 'off' in a good way.......
Just a quick explanation about note clashes: What I mean by a clash (sometimes referred to as a "coloration") is notes that does not belong to the chord being played (= is not one of the three notes of the chord). Some notes clash "well" and some clash "ugly" due to a bunch of theoretical reasons. Notes that clash well can often be an important part of the melody and notes that clash "ugly" are often just short transitions to another note (or, the chord underneath changes, changing or removing (more common) the clash after a short while).
I had a listen to the Usher song and that is a very good example actually.
In the chorus when this part comes, the two notes that make up "oh baby baby" goes over two chords and the melody is the same 2 notes repeating. Here, only the first note "ohh" of the first chord is NOT a clash. The 2nd note "baby" on the first chord is a "9th" (or 2nd if you like) and is usually a nice clash although 4ths (sus4) are more common on that specific chord. The second chord however, has two very good clashes, the 7th (ohh) and the 4th (baby) which work exeptionally well for this chord.
So, while the melody is very simple and sing-along-able, the clashes makes it interesting and memorable.
An example with one of my own songs (wrote this one with a whole bunch of dudes, lol): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psL13MeJg1U (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psL13MeJg1U)
I received the idea for the chorus from my cowriters which, at this time, had the repeating "mind" on the same note over and over with no clashes. I made the small change of clashing the last "mind" (making a 6th) and also wrote the "on and on" part with a little more melody to counter the repetitiveness and narrow range of the first part.
I'm not saying this song is perfect in any way, but its one example how you can work with clashes to avoid "boring" repetition.
Note that with all this theory, there is still a very good reason why the first idea that pops into a songwriter's head when listening to a track usually has value, one way or another. I use all these tricks all the time but in the end, if it sounds good go with it 8)
Thanks wiik, understand what you mean, and your song is great, man!! Very satisfying and catchy. I love the repetition of "mind mind" and the bass line of the chorus......that last bass note of fourth bar of chorus is unexpected and feels good (the substitution of vi minor).......but that's a whole 'nother topic :D
" Everything I'm saying is not meant to bash anybody or similiar. Simply talking from a professional point of view.
I listened 15 secs to your first two tracks and have too say we're talking completely different levels here. I switched after 15 secs because the melody didn't grab my attention and the sound wasn't that catchy.
The reason why someone is not in the music game is simply this one....:
...because you didn't put out some freaking awesome and super catchy music. Do you really think if someone releases super stunning tracks which get airplay and are shared with todays technology and social media possibilities will not be successful if he tries to get in there?
I've seen any part of the music industry and can say that if you have a hit then no one can mess with it. It's that simple.
I agree with you that people spent more time on mixing in the 90s then now but the point that they are trapped in that situation i is simply unlogical. For example Max worked on albums sold over 300 millions times. Add it up and you see, he wouldn't have to do a thing for hundreds of years. "
- 15 secs , that's funny , why don't you actually listen to one whole song next time , there's usually more to hear that way ;).
- Umm. I think your opinions about the music biz are really clouded , is it really about the music or who you know ?? You tell me. I don't need to answer cos it is really quite obvious when you look into it. Perhaps do a little research for yourself then get back to me.
- Well my point exactly , because Max has established a name for himself he really doesn't have to prove anything anymore. Is this necessarily a good thing when it comes to pushing the bar for music ?? Not so convinced myself.
- Yes I used one production perspective for those songs so I could stylise it as an album , it was deliberately meant to sound as one style if you see what I mean. But just to prove my versality I recently worked on a simple ballad with Kyle Jupiter - Someday You Will https://soundcloud.com/wavescapestudios/kyle-jupiter-someday-you-will
And what about this for originality: https://soundcloud.com/wavescapestudios/laguna-beach-cop-preview
Sorry but when was the last time the good folks at Cheiron took a sample like that and sent it into space haha :) !
Best,
Neal
" An example with one of my own songs (wrote this one with a whole bunch of dudes, lol): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psL13MeJg1U "
Cool track !
- Here are my 2 cents. I would simplify it some more , the bridge could for example be like a pre-chorus up to the chorus and maybe do something else for the actual bridge.
- Some strong strings to take the chorus up and you could add a low harmony to thicken the lead vocal in the chorus as well.
- The mix could be cleaner !!
- Vocal sounds a little dry , there's too much ensemble , cut it slightly so the vocal is more natural. Put some more high EQ on the pads and cut the low EQ a little on it so not so thick.
- The adlibs are too much and sound crowded , limit them to perhaps the best ones.
- To change it up you could do a lyrical play such as " Never gonna let me go , if i'm Never gonna let you go "
- Bass drum is a bit too compressed and you could use a sharper snare.
Just some technical pointers from my point of view. Hope they are useful but this is relative not factual so please don't take it like so.
Best,
Neal
Quote from: Neal on January 11, 2013, 04:45:26 AM
" An example with one of my own songs (wrote this one with a whole bunch of dudes, lol): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psL13MeJg1U "
Cool track !
- Here are my 2 cents. I would simplify it some more ....
Hmmm... this is getting a bit weird now. I don't know if Wilk is looking for pointers... as the song already appears to have been cut (and is really hooky by the way).
^ ^ ^
My thought exactly!! :D :D
Quote from: Neal on January 11, 2013, 03:30:20 AM
" Everything I'm saying is not meant to bash anybody or similiar. Simply talking from a professional point of view.
I listened 15 secs to your first two tracks and have too say we're talking completely different levels here. I switched after 15 secs because the melody didn't grab my attention and the sound wasn't that catchy.
The reason why someone is not in the music game is simply this one....:
...because you didn't put out some freaking awesome and super catchy music. Do you really think if someone releases super stunning tracks which get airplay and are shared with todays technology and social media possibilities will not be successful if he tries to get in there?
I've seen any part of the music industry and can say that if you have a hit then no one can mess with it. It's that simple.
I agree with you that people spent more time on mixing in the 90s then now but the point that they are trapped in that situation i is simply unlogical. For example Max worked on albums sold over 300 millions times. Add it up and you see, he wouldn't have to do a thing for hundreds of years. "
- 15 secs , that's funny , why don't you actually listen to one whole song next time , there's usually more to hear that way ;).
- Umm. I think your opinions about the music biz are really clouded , is it really about the music or who you know ?? You tell me. I don't need to answer cos it is really quite obvious when you look into it. Perhaps do a little research for yourself then get back to me.
- Well my point exactly , because Max has established a name for himself he really doesn't have to prove anything anymore. Is this necessarily a good thing when it comes to pushing the bar for music ?? Not so convinced myself.
- Yes I used one production perspective for those songs so I could stylise it as an album , it was deliberately meant to sound as one style if you see what I mean. But just to prove my versality I recently worked on a simple ballad with Kyle Jupiter - Someday You Will https://soundcloud.com/wavescapestudios/kyle-jupiter-someday-you-will
And what about this for originality: https://soundcloud.com/wavescapestudios/laguna-beach-cop-preview
Sorry but when was the last time the good folks at Cheiron took a sample like that and sent it into space haha :) !
Best,
Neal
A great song have to catch the attention in the first seconds, after the chorus I believe thats the most important part, if your song starts in a bad way, people are just going to skip it.
"Hmmm... this is getting a bit weird now. I don't know if Wilk is looking for pointers... as the song already appears to have been cut (and is really hooky by the way)."
How do you know what Wilk (btw is that short for Wilkins or Wilkingson ?? ) is looking for ? Why don't you let him decide that. Funny how he hasn't responded yet , Hmmm ...
" A great song have to catch the attention in the first seconds, after the chorus I believe thats the most important part, if your song starts in a bad way, people are just going to skip it. "
No it doesn't. I'm sorry I didn't get a copy of " The Music Rulebook " with my years of producing :) !! There's been countless great songs with " boring or bad or whatever you wanna call it " intros. Ever heard a song called Drowning by BSB , I remember the first time hearing it I was drifting off with the fishes until it actually went into the chorus.
put yourself in the position of an A&R person or a song publisher. You get pitches of 50 songs and you listen to one by one.. if you don't get hooked within the first 20 secs, you'll start forwarding or you'll skip the song entirely. That's just how it works in the industry. Or let's say your chances of someone listening to your WHOLE song increases dramatically if you get people hooked within the first few seconds.
I think I'm gonna stay out of this one.
Quote from: Neal on January 18, 2013, 12:49:02 AM
No it doesn't. I'm sorry I didn't get a copy of " The Music Rulebook " with my years of producing :) !! There's been countless great songs with " boring or bad or whatever you wanna call it " intros. Ever heard a song called Drowning by BSB , I remember the first time hearing it I was drifting off with the fishes until it actually went into the chorus.
its getting weirder in here!!!!!!! haha!
"put yourself in the position of an A&R person or a song publisher. You get pitches of 50 songs and you listen to one by one.. if you don't get hooked within the first 20 secs, you'll start forwarding or you'll skip the song entirely. That's just how it works in the industry. Or let's say your chances of someone listening to your WHOLE song increases dramatically if you get people hooked within the first few seconds."
No I agree somewhat but A&R's seldom sign songs they hear online or something , most of the time it's because of an actual relationship the A&R might have with the artist or songwriter or sort of network of connections if you see what I mean. I doubt the " intro " really matters if it came from someone they trust " solicited source " the chances would be much higher then.
In any case I enhanced the mix and vocal phrasing of a song in the album , here https://soundcloud.com/wavescapestudios/neal-sabel-waiting-in-the
To me it feels like it could almost be a Lady Gaga song , give or take , but a female vocalist would be nice if one is around here ??
"I think I'm gonna stay out of this one."
Why ?? Feel free to say what you like :).
"its getting weirder in here!!!!!!! haha!"
You can say that again
I was searching for song production info on The One That Got Away by Katy Perry and found this very interesting article. They deconstruct the song in a very detailed, informative manner and give an overall assessment of why the song was a hit. It adds songwriter/producer take aways, what they did to make it a hit. http://reports.hitsongsdeconstructed.com/2012/01/11/the-one-that-got-away-deconstructed/ I thought you might enjoy reading the analysis. The site is Hit Songs Deconstructed.
I love the song, I think it's one of their best song productions (Perry, Luke, Martin). I know that Max is huge on the importance of a powerful chorus and this song has 4 chorus sections which comprise 57% of the song! And yet, it's not tiresome or repetitive in an annoying way like some choruses.
QuoteMax writes in his head. He doesn't touch an instrument until the song is done (top line + chords).
Of course the arrangement may be massaged 'til the cows come home. He's one of the hardest working guys in show business (along with Dr Dre). Twenty hour days are routine...for weeks in a row. Max reportedly stayed up 72 hours straight working on the kick drum sound for Britney Spear's "Baby One More Time." He reportedly only demos 1 in 300 songs. His best work comes when he's in a zone...a manic phase where he catches lightning in a bottle.
I intended to not start my first post with negativity. But Neal, the quality (or lack thereof) of the songs you've posted, and content of your posts, in general, really don't compliment the intellectual conversation that is happening in this thread, and that's a shame. There's always that one person who is super stubborn and doesn't really "get it". It really hurts the thread. Lastly, if "writing a good melody" is "easy" for you, either your definition of "easy" is very different than most, or your standards of "great" are extremely low (and after hearing the songs, I'll side with the latter).
To get back on topic, the word that intrigued me most about the original post was the word "memorable". I think "memorable" is a subjective characteristic, but I also think it can be defined and established in all of us at a very early age (through nature, not nurture). I was thinking about this a few months/years ago...
The songs that will be most successful within the mainstream market are the songs that are most "memorable" to the largest majority. As a writer, diagnosing and re-creating those melodies and intervals is the hard part. Doing it repeatedly, is even harder. Doing it repeatedly over 15+ years, is even harder (Max). I think all of us, at the early stages of brain, speech and sound development, learn to associate certain noises, speech inflections, modulations, volumes, etc. with certain feelings. I truly believe that the intervals that a particular person is most drawn-to can be traced back to this period, as these are the very first audio and noise associations we are introduced to when we were born. Hell, when we were kids, maybe the opening theme song of the most popular cartoon at that time is the reason why we like the pop music we do now (and maybe the most effective pop songs now, use the same melodic intervals as those particular theme songs). Maybe the melodic intervals/notes I hit when I say "Do you want a snack?" to a little kid, over and over and over again, are the intervals that he will grow-up loving in music when he's in high school. I also believe tastes/preferences can evolve, much in the same way they're developed.
Max has figured out a formula that has transcended a number of generations, across a number of musical genres. For all we know, maybe he is listening to speech patterns, 90s sitcom theme songs, police sirens, and other general noises found in every day life and literally implementing them in his songs (knowing every human is familiar with those intervals). Who knows. But I truly believe he has figured out something the rest of us have not...and it's much deeper than just on a musical level, in my opinion. Finding out the root, and core, of what makes something "memorable", is a good place to start, in my opinion...
Also, I co-manage a relatively new songwriting duo out of L.A. who is very influenced by Max/Luke, and have written with Savan, as well as many other established writers (Kara Dioguardi, Lauren Kristie, etc). Here is some of the stuff -
http://soundcloud.com/blueprintmusicprod/up-all-night/s-4MhzI
http://soundcloud.com/blueprintmusicprod/timeless-cmoncmoncmon/s-KPMsO
http://soundcloud.com/blueprintmusicprod/champagne/s-IVowQ
http://soundcloud.com/blueprintmusicprod/freefallin/s-SVTVP
Nice to have you on the forum Hocus! :) Yeah I get the feeling Neal was only interested in praise, but if you build people up instead of being honest, the fall is only going to be harder.
I've thought about where our individual music taste stems from, but never to the degree of everyday sounds we hear, that's interesting. Obviously the music we hear during a young age would have an influence, but you're right in that there has to be something even deeper to explain why, for example, siblings growing up listening to the same music can end up with completely different tastes. I have one brother and one sister, but I'm the only one in the family who loves pop. My brother likes mostly folk/country, and my sister is into rap/RnB. Having said that, their personalities majorly reflect the music they listen to, so does genetics also play a role in determining our tastes before we even hear our first sounds? Hmm, it's so complex.
I agree that Max has that magic ingredient, but I sometimes wonder if even he knows specifically what it is. It's quite possible that he knows when one of his songs has "got it", but I wonder if he could pin-point it so exactly. If he really does write hundreds of songs before reaching a hit, it suggests to me that he has to work through until he finds that magic, rather than starting with it. I'm sure he has plenty of techniques for getting the base work done though, all of his throw away ideas are probably already halfway to perfection. :D
i must say that max martin has some serious talent.
here is an interview with max martin, the only interview ever?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zR4V7i8GIVY
Well, honesty i wasn't just interested in praise, of course it's nice when people can actually "appreciate" something a bit different and original but not everyone wants to take off their hat they've worn for x amount of years and see past their linear view of perspective. It's kinda like when a dog eats the same biscuit and then you give it something new and it doesn't quite know what to make of it. If you see what I mean, strange analogy I know woof woof ! I'm not the dog in this story by the way, no one is (well sometimes I can be a bit of a wolf round the girls but that's another story altogether :) - this is off the record I never said that ok cool !! ) , the point I'm making is I am a real Cheiron follower way back since Etype and Dr.Alban - Remember them. So I don't get the animosity I'm kinda getting here, I've also got some swedish blood on my mother's side - probably where I get the " talent " from maybe I don't know. The wolf thing well that might stem from the other side :) lol.
Anyway guys, no I really appreciate you taking the time to listen to my songs , it's really cool ! Tack :).
I recently collaborated with a swedish female artist - check it out https://soundcloud.com/wavescapestudios/why-didnt-i-tell-you-that
So let's start over, hi my name's Neal and it's great to be here on this wonderful day in this wonderful forum !!
Neal, I don't know how to put this without it seeming like a kick in the teeth, but really I'm not trying to be horrible, just honest. It's not about a lack of acceptance of anything out of the box, because if it were I can promise you I'd be able to appreciate it. I'm not even really a big fan of any of the styles dominating radio at the moment, and would love to hear something different and fresh. But it's not going to come in the form of your songs I'm afraid. The quality just isn't there, it's not even remotely close. I know that's hard to accept, but listen to everyone trying to help you here. Every track I've heard of yours is a massive blur of weak, cheap sounding synths with the same ideas repeated over and over. The vocals in that last song you posted hardly even fit the chord progression, it's near painful to listen to. Also, I'm all for a picazzo string/bass type sound to make a comeback, but don't you think you're overdoing it a bit, it's the main feature of all of your songs. :o I know you think we just don't "get it", but I wish there was a way to make you realise it's the other way around here. I do hope you make progress with your music, but to do that I really think you need to find a new perspective and take some advice on the chin! :)
Wow Joshua impressive analysis !
So you must be a producer or writer ?? Come on , let's not fuck about here , you sound like you've "worked" with someone or something. Who if you don't mind me asking. I've worked for Konami as a keyboard programmer on the MGS series amongst other projects and was mentored by a world class dance DJ based in Germany- he had no complaints !! I've used over half a dozen top of the line synthesizers/modules, worked with Audio engineers, game developers, producers etc. Now I'm running my own company " WaveScapeStudios" to develop more into the artist side of things and Talent Scouting. But you better have some creds to back this all up otherwise your silence WILL speak volumes :).
Btw, whilst at Konami together with some friends we came up with a new Arpeggio phrasing and programming system called Advanced Arpeggio Programming (AAP). It's a much more focused and intuitive approach to using, applying and programming with the arpegiattor. NO ONE IS DOING ANYTHING REMOTELY LIKE IT !! Those sounds won't be found on your cheap soft synths sorry to say not in a million years.
Btw, if it's envy or jealousy IT WILL NEVER stop me sharing my music on this forum :) :) !!
Nope, I don't have much to brag about (thankfully). I've worked in commercial television and radio production for about ten years, so audio is my world. But I'm also a singer/keyboardist and my dream is to make it big in the industry. I've been working really hard on writing songs that I want to be comparable in quality to what's out there commercially. The same applies for production techniques, I'm not interested in doing a subpar job. Being a good listener is key to reaching that goal, and being able to criticize my own work until it's good enough is how all our heroes from Cheiron work. Don't put anything in the mix that's not good enough. So yeah, only time will tell if my end product is any good, but I promise to work at it until people I trust agree that it's up there with professional material.
Surely you don't think expensive synths are incapable of making rubbish sounds? You can have all the high end gear in the world and still produce crap, so don't fool yourself. New ways of programming an arpeggiator when your songs and production are average isn't going to blow anyone's minds either I'm afraid. Look back on the feedback the other guys here have given you and take it in your stride. Either that or go on believing we're all envious and then ask yourself in twenty years what went wrong. ;)
Hey Guys,
i like the discussion here ;-)
Here`s a Songdemo from me. What do you think, any ideas to make it better. Thanks for your help
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3f23efbscrphzet/happy%2Bwithout%2Byou%2Bromy.mp3
Very interesting discussion re: melodic intervals! I was hoping we could take that discussion further. To this point we have only discussed song examples where these common intervals are applied, but I think it would be great to actually discuss those intervals, especially for those of us who are not musically trained and want to understand them. One of the things I was hoping to do -- and hopefully one or more of you would be willing to participate -- is to actually map out the melodies of Max's biggest hit songs (i.e. typing out the actual notes) and their accompanying chord progressions. By doing this we can begin to truly analyze the melodic formula of Max Martin, as well as understand which melodies work best with which chord progressions. Would anyone be willing to try this? If so, let's post the results here!
This thread has gone a bit off-topic, but I just wanted to post a songwriting tutorial video I made a couple of years ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykYGXMURUew
It's my take on how Max might write a song, and has helped me write (what I think) are some good melodies. I won't make the mistake of claiming that they're objectively good for fear of derailing the thread again :D
Quote from: fffdd on May 06, 2013, 06:07:13 PM
This thread has gone a bit off-topic, but I just wanted to post a songwriting tutorial video I made a couple of years ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykYGXMURUew
It's my take on how Max might write a song, and has helped me write (what I think) are some good melodies. I won't make the mistake of claiming that they're objectively good for fear of derailing the thread again :D
The video is very interesting , I agree it's all a good song need , the melody is the most important.
Wanted to bring back this great thread. I still am not sure what is meant by intervals since I don't know how to read or write music and I have no idea about music theory. But I am eager to learn what this means! Can someone please explain? I also keep hearing about "counting syllables" and that's apparently a trick used by Max, Luke and all the writers they mentor. What do you reckon that means?
Also, wanted to ask if there is anyone hear who is able to write out the melody notes of some of the biggest Max hit choruses to study? That would be the ultimate way I think to understand Max's genius a little more! Perhaps that is what is meant by intervals? I dunno, but I really would love to explore this further! :D
Intervals are the "distances" between two notes. For instance, the interval between A and A# is of course one half step etc.
Counting syllables are most commonly used as a reference between two groups of notes if you will.
You - make - me - feel - like - I'm - li - vin' - a (9 syllables)
Teen - age - dream - the - way - you - turn - me - on (9 syllables)
This emphazises the melody by keeping its consistency.
I like the enthusiasm! But looking at sheet music of Max-choruses won't give you any real information. I would love it if there was such a note-specific formula to hit-making, but unfortunately it's not 100% science. There are small tips and trix up his sleeve that is more easily found by just listening to his biggest tunes, not "looking" at them. Listen for how he arranges notes. Short phrases, longer phrases etc.
Thanks for the reply!
So the syllable thing is just about the number of lyrics in a line, right? Not about anything specifically in the melody?
And if I understand correctly, based on what you defined as intervals, the thing that was described earlier in this thread had to do with specific patterns of intervals used by Max? For example, jumping from the 1 to the 3, or from the 5 to the 2?
I do agree with your last statement, but I think it would be interesting to also visualize these little tricks. At least that would help me better understand it. :-)
PS - Can you elaborate on what you mean by "how he arranges notes. Short phrases, longer phrases etc." Is there an example?
I think his toplining skills have evolved.
It's about many things: the syllabes thing makes sense in his newest compositions.
In many of his songs the melody of the chorus starts in some part of the last bar of the verse, before the first of the chorus.
Yes, but then again some of his best choruses (now and before) starts on the 2nd beat of the chorus or later, so it's definitely not some sort of recurring theme in his songs. "Break Free" and "Get Another Boyfriend" being two examples.
As far as intervals, I'd say no, there are no specific pattern. As 99% of hit pop songs are written in standard triad chord-shapes, meaning that you're gonna find tonics, thirds and fifths a lot. I have myself tried to find if he favors to land on like, the minor third whenever the minor chord hits (a lot of the times in the 3rd bar considering the classic C, G, Am, F form) but it changes from song to song.
If you feel like looking at the sheet music, then by all means do it! It will not hurt of course :) Sheet music for his biggest hits are easily accessable if you google it.
Yeah. Try Teenage Dream for example which is sort of a "perfectly written" pop song. Note that the first part of the chorus is sort of short staccato type notes/words and the next group of notes are eight notes in a row.
You - Make - Me feellikeI'mlivinga
Teen - Age - Dream thewayyouturnmeon
If you understand where I'm going? Dotted 4ths going into 8ths
"Raise Your Glass":
(So raise your) Glass - When - You - Are - Wrong Inalltherightways
All - My - Under - Dogs Wewillneverbeneverbe
Etc. It creates ear-appealing rhythmic variations at the same time as the melody is consistent in it's form. And note the "lift" as she sings "underdogs", which is sort of a melodic climax over the minor chord. Chords being G, D, C, C, Em, D.
Now THAT is some great info Alexander! ;D
The Teenage Dream and Raise Your Glass comparison really highlights something interesting. I could talk about this stuff all day!
So I guess the rest of it boils down to: talent, hard work, not stopping until something is perfect, and experience. Amongst many other things...
all great stuff here people!
What I'm curious about is how fast they write melodies. Ive read in an interview that max says "music should be inspiring and fun."
One of the members on this forum had the pleasure to work with max and said he "works UBER fast." Yet they describe songs taking days, sometimes weeks to finish. As I'm sure some of you have experienced, writing a melody and re-writing and re-writing over and over begins to be anything but fun. In fact it becomes un-inspiring and completely stressful... it's almost like you walked in the forest so deep that now, you don't know which way you came in and which way youre going.
So spending a week on a melody alone would be insane.
So that leads me to beleive that they must be writing melodies relatively fast. In an inspired, fun state. The rest of the week or two weeks is production, lyrics, finishing touches, composition.
My question is... how long? What's the situation like? Do they take a lot of breaks in between sessions? Do they listen to inspiring music to get ideas? If an idea comes out and it's good, do they say "great idea, lets move on!" or do they say "great idea, lets see if we can top it with a better one."
I think you're spot on about the process. There is no reason to believe that it takes more than a day, maybe half a day of intensive writing to finish the melodies for a song. Changing a notes length or whatever in a later stage doesn't count in my book.
Typically the sessions that these top producer/songwriters have are kind of short and intense, with Katy etc. maybe being an exception with Max/Luke/Bonnie/Katy basically doing the whole album (Teenage/Prism). They may have taken their time a little bit more, but the songwriting process remains the same. When writing with an artist, they may only have 1 or 2 days when flown in where they need to get a lot done in a short period of time. It was specified in an interview somewhere when someone had a week long session with Max and somebody else, how many songs where written. And it was, at least one song a day. I believe it was 10 or something.
When 2, 3 or maybe even 4 or more world class writers get in a room together and jam, topline or whatever, there are a lot of good ideas flowing which makes the writing process really fast. When the basic melodies are down, then more time can be spent on lyrics and production, even arrangements as you said.
As far as "inspiring and fun", I'm very sure that in case they get writers block on a specific song, they'll leave it for a while and work on something else!
I know that Benny Blanco listens to a lot of music in the beginning hour of sessions to get in the mode inspiration wise. How Max does I'm not sure, but seeing as most artists sort of have a vision of what they want to sound like they probably listen to some reference tracks. When Katy was doing Prism, the idea was to make a record inspired by Robyn, so they probably listened to her, and with a track like "Walking on Air" they definitely listened to "Finally" and other 90's dance tracks.
I suppose you may be right, but I've read somewhere a quote by Savan Kotecha and he says that they work on something sometimes for weeks and months. He specifically mentioned it being the "Swedish way." Since he studied under Max and works with him a lot I figured he picked it up from him.
I'm sure they do sometimes! But I think that it's probably a matter of them putting some songs away. Let's say they have a great chorus but get stuck on the verse melody. They'll probably pause and revisit that song maybe weeks later, write a cool verse but realizing they need to change the chorus accordingly and those kinds of things. I think the writing of melodies, most of the time, is a relatively quick process, but production, lyrics, arrangement and "final touches" can be a really drawn out process to reach perfection.
Of course impossible to say unless we ask Max ;) But it's like they say, some songs take 15 minutes to write, some take a lot longer.
You know, I think you're right. A lot of songwriters talk about songs just coming to them as if it where a gift from the heavens above. We do know that Max and a lot of writers will record melody ideas they have on a voice recorder, but we all have read I'm sure that Max only uses 1 out of say 300 ideas (not sure how exaggerated that number is, but I think the point is made). So the melodies must be flowing out. I suppose it's the editing process afterwards that takes things over the top. But the original idea is probably quick.
Anyway, it's so interesting to examine the songwriting process. You can study guys like Savan Kotecha, Carl Falk, Rami Yacoub and they all have very similar styles to Max. And now that Luke has created his own team in LA it seems like all his writers are showing to Max qualities as well. Things like that just confirm that Max is a special writer who just knows exactly what to do to make a great song. Why else would so many people copy him?
Yeah, I mean, Max has had 18 nr. 1 hits as of right now. But if you look at closer: Shellback is 100% a product of Max, Dr. Luke had Max as a mentor for a long time before standing on his own feet as the successful popwriter he is now. Benny Blanco is in turn taught by Luke. Rami and Max developed pretty much the same "formula" for pop hits together, and Carl Falk is a product of Rami. Ilya - Max, Tove Lo - Max, Richard/Johan/Peter from Carolina Liar - Max, Bonnie McKee - Max/Luke. The list just goes on. All roads lead to Max Martin, and if you look at it that way, just count how many nr. 1's or top 10 hits are directly connected to the Max Martin school of pop writing.
Quote from: AlexanderLaBrea on September 02, 2014, 05:13:10 PM
Yeah, I mean, Max has had 18 nr. 1 hits as of right now. But if you look at closer: Shellback is 100% a product of Max, Dr. Luke had Max as a mentor for a long time before standing on his own feet as the successful popwriter he is now. Benny Blanco is in turn taught by Luke. Rami and Max developed pretty much the same "formula" for pop hits together, and Carl Falk is a product of Rami. Ilya - Max, Tove Lo - Max, Richard/Johan/Peter from Carolina Liar - Max, Bonnie McKee - Max/Luke. The list just goes on. All roads lead to Max Martin, and if you look at it that way, just count how many nr. 1's or top 10 hits are directly connected to the Max Martin school of pop writing.
Incredible!
I've asked questions about methods and formulas for years and participated in the same question asked by others in other forums.
But apparently there is no such thing as a magic songwriting formula.
But if that's true how come the top songwriters keep coming up with hit after hit after hit. ??
There have been lenghty discussions on this subject here on the forum, but the bottom line is this: No there isn't, but yes there is.
Of course there is no magic formula where you use 100% math and algorithms or whatever to create a hit. But what they do have is a toolbox of little tricks they can pull out. Some of them have been spoken about publicly, like if the verse starts on the downbeat then the prechorus shouldn't start on the downbeat etc. Also introducing "weird" melodies and such, like the "wee-eee" bit in "We are never getting back together" (Max spoke about this in the documentary).
Many of these tricks can be found out just by analyzing as well. Listen to a lot of Max Martin hits and you'll find similarities in song structure, lenghts, melody choices and so forth.
Basically the answer to the question you had is most probably: They are extremely talented, they work incredibly hard, and by doing that for a long time they've developed a method and a lot of tricks. Combining the talent of a lot of people (Cheiron/Wolf Cousins), with outstanding work ethic, Max's (and now Savans as it seems) overall wisdom and ear, and also the tricks in the toolbox. You'll wind up with hits ;)
I agree but mostly what members on here are describing is an approach or different approaches to songwriting these are not methods. I'm talking about a method to instantly create a tune without the actual fiddling about on the guitar trying to noodle out a tune. Because at the end of the day before you can turn your song into a hit you need to find a very good tune to write your lyrics to.
Yeah but that's why there is no formula. They still write in the same fashion as other writers, trying to hum out a good melody or whatever. What they have is a superior knowledge of what works, and how to optimize things. But it doesn't start with that, that comes in later.
If you're searching for a method to instantly create hit melodies out of the blue you're not gonna find it.
Quote from: AlexanderLaBrea on March 20, 2017, 12:57:42 PM
Yeah but that's why there is no formula. They still write in the same fashion as other writers, trying to hum out a good melody or whatever. What they have is a superior knowledge of what works, and how to optimize things. But it doesn't start with that, that comes in later.
If you're searching for a method to instantly create hit melodies out of the blue you're not gonna find it.
That's exactly what I'm looking for.
Quote from: Cm6 on March 20, 2017, 03:59:50 PM
That's exactly what I'm looking for.
Well good luck with that then.
Would be good to know more of these tools, or little 'tricks' to use when songwriting. I'm sure there's a lot more, and the things we know are the ones that are already well known and can be 'thrown away' to the public (the 'prince theory' of songwriting?)