How Do Max And Shellback Create Memorable Melodies?

[Neal]

"put yourself in the position of an A&R person or a song publisher. You get pitches of 50 songs and you listen to one by one.. if you don't get hooked within the first 20 secs, you'll start forwarding or you'll skip the song entirely. That's just how it works in the industry. Or let's say your chances of someone listening to your WHOLE song increases dramatically if you get people hooked within the first few seconds."

No I agree somewhat but A&R's seldom sign songs they hear online or something , most of the time it's because of an actual relationship the A&R might have with the artist or songwriter or sort of network of connections if you see what I mean. I doubt the " intro " really matters if it came from someone they trust " solicited source " the chances would be much higher then.

In any case I enhanced the mix and vocal phrasing of a song in the album , here https://soundcloud.com/wavescapestudios/neal-sabel-waiting-in-the
To me it feels like it could almost be a Lady Gaga song , give or take , but a female vocalist would be nice if one is around here ??

 

[Neal]

"I think I'm gonna stay out of this one."

Why ?? Feel free to say what you like . 

[Neal]

"its getting weirder in here!!!!!!! haha!"

You can say that again

[rebekahELLE]

I was searching for song production info on The One That Got Away by Katy Perry and found this very interesting article.  They deconstruct the song in a very detailed, informative manner and give an overall assessment of why the song was a hit.  It adds songwriter/producer take aways, what they did to make it a hit.  http://reports.hitsongsdeconstructed.com/2012/01/11/the-one-that-got-away-deconstructed/   I thought you might enjoy reading the analysis.   The site is Hit Songs Deconstructed. 

I love the song, I think it's one of their best song productions (Perry, Luke, Martin).  I know that Max is huge on the importance of a powerful chorus and this song has 4 chorus sections which comprise 57% of the song!  And yet, it's not tiresome or repetitive in an annoying way like some choruses. 

[nznexus]

Max writes in his head. He doesn't touch an instrument until the song is done (top line + chords).

Of course the arrangement may be massaged 'til the cows come home. He's one of the hardest working guys in show business (along with Dr Dre). Twenty hour days are routine...for weeks in a row. Max reportedly stayed up 72 hours straight working on the kick drum sound for Britney Spear's "Baby One More Time." He reportedly only demos 1 in 300 songs. His best work comes when he's in a zone...a manic phase where he catches lightning in a bottle.

[HocusPocus]

I intended to not start my first post with negativity. But Neal, the quality (or lack thereof) of the songs you've posted, and content of your posts, in general, really don't compliment the intellectual conversation that is happening in this thread, and that's a shame. There's always that one person who is super stubborn and doesn't really "get it". It really hurts the thread. Lastly, if "writing a good melody" is "easy" for you, either your definition of "easy" is very different than most, or your standards of "great" are extremely low (and after hearing the songs, I'll side with the latter).

To get back on topic, the word that intrigued me most about the original post was the word "memorable". I think "memorable" is a subjective characteristic, but I also think it can be defined and established in all of us at a very early age (through nature, not nurture). I was thinking about this a few months/years ago...

The songs that will be most successful within the mainstream market are the songs that are most "memorable" to the largest majority. As a writer, diagnosing and re-creating those melodies and intervals is the hard part. Doing it repeatedly, is even harder. Doing it repeatedly over 15+ years, is even harder (Max). I think all of us, at the early stages of brain, speech and sound development, learn to associate certain noises, speech inflections, modulations, volumes, etc. with certain feelings. I truly believe that the intervals that a particular person is most drawn-to can be traced back to this period, as these are the very first audio and noise associations we are introduced to when we were born. Hell, when we were kids, maybe the opening theme song of the most popular cartoon at that time is the reason why we like the pop music we do now (and maybe the most effective pop songs now, use the same melodic intervals as those particular theme songs). Maybe the melodic intervals/notes I hit when I say "Do you want a snack?" to a little kid, over and over and over again, are the intervals that he will grow-up loving in music when he's in high school. I also believe tastes/preferences can evolve, much in the same way they're developed.

Max has figured out a formula that has transcended a number of generations, across a number of musical genres. For all we know, maybe he is listening to speech patterns, 90s sitcom theme songs, police sirens, and other general noises found in every day life and literally implementing them in his songs (knowing every human is familiar with those intervals). Who knows. But I truly believe he has figured out something the rest of us have not...and it's much deeper than just on a musical level, in my opinion. Finding out the root, and core, of what makes something "memorable", is a good place to start, in my opinion...

Also, I co-manage a relatively new songwriting duo out of L.A. who is very influenced by Max/Luke, and have written with Savan, as well as many other established writers (Kara Dioguardi, Lauren Kristie, etc). Here is some of the stuff -

http://soundcloud.com/blueprintmusicprod/up-all-night/s-4MhzI

http://soundcloud.com/blueprintmusicprod/timeless-cmoncmoncmon/s-KPMsO

http://soundcloud.com/blueprintmusicprod/champagne/s-IVowQ

http://soundcloud.com/blueprintmusicprod/freefallin/s-SVTVP

[Joshua]

Nice to have you on the forum Hocus! Yeah I get the feeling Neal was only interested in praise, but if you build people up instead of being honest, the fall is only going to be harder.

I've thought about where our individual music taste stems from, but never to the degree of everyday sounds we hear, that's interesting. Obviously the music we hear during a young age would have an influence, but you're right in that there has to be something even deeper to explain why, for example, siblings growing up listening to the same music can end up with completely different tastes. I have one brother and one sister, but I'm the only one in the family who loves pop. My brother likes mostly folk/country, and my sister is into rap/RnB. Having said that, their personalities majorly reflect the music they listen to, so does genetics also play a role in determining our tastes before we even hear our first sounds? Hmm, it's so complex.

I agree that Max has that magic ingredient, but I sometimes wonder if even he knows specifically what it is. It's quite possible that he knows when one of his songs has "got it", but I wonder if he could pin-point it so exactly. If he really does write hundreds of songs before reaching a hit, it suggests to me that he has to work through until he finds that magic, rather than starting with it. I'm sure he has plenty of techniques for getting the base work done though, all of his throw away ideas are probably already halfway to perfection.

[nznexus]

i must say that max martin has some serious talent.

here is an interview with max martin, the only interview ever?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zR4V7i8GIVY

[Neal]

Well, honesty i wasn't just interested in praise, of course it's nice when people can actually "appreciate" something a bit different and original but not everyone wants to take off their hat they've worn for x amount of years and see past their linear view of perspective. It's kinda like when a dog eats the same biscuit and then you give it something new and it doesn't quite know what to make of it. If you see what I mean, strange analogy I know woof woof ! I'm not the dog in this story by the way, no one is (well sometimes I can be a bit of a wolf round the girls but that's another story altogether - this is off the record I never said that ok cool !! ) , the point I'm making is I am a real Cheiron follower way back since Etype and Dr.Alban - Remember them. So I don't get the animosity I'm kinda getting here, I've also got some swedish blood on my mother's side - probably where I get the " talent " from maybe I don't know. The wolf thing well that might stem from the other side lol.

Anyway guys, no I really appreciate you taking the time to listen to my songs , it's really cool ! Tack .

I recently collaborated with a swedish female artist - check it out  https://soundcloud.com/wavescapestudios/why-didnt-i-tell-you-that

So let's start over, hi my name's Neal and it's great to be here on this wonderful day in this wonderful forum !!

[Joshua]

Neal, I don't know how to put this without it seeming like a kick in the teeth, but really I'm not trying to be horrible, just honest. It's not about a lack of acceptance of anything out of the box, because if it were I can promise you I'd be able to appreciate it. I'm not even really a big fan of any of the styles dominating radio at the moment, and would love to hear something different and fresh. But it's not going to come in the form of your songs I'm afraid. The quality just isn't there, it's not even remotely close. I know that's hard to accept, but listen to everyone trying to help you here. Every track I've heard of yours is a massive blur of weak, cheap sounding synths with the same ideas repeated over and over. The vocals in that last song you posted hardly even fit the chord progression, it's near painful to listen to. Also, I'm all for a picazzo string/bass type sound to make a comeback, but don't you think you're overdoing it a bit, it's the main feature of all of your songs. I know you think we just don't "get it", but I wish there was a way to make you realise it's the other way around here. I do hope you make progress with your music, but to do that I really think you need to find a new perspective and take some advice on the chin!

[Neal]

Wow Joshua impressive analysis !

So you must be a producer or writer ?? Come on , let's not fuck about here , you sound like you've "worked" with someone or something. Who if you don't mind me asking. I've worked for Konami as a keyboard programmer on the MGS series amongst other projects and was mentored by a world class dance DJ based in Germany- he had no complaints !! I've used over half a dozen top of the line synthesizers/modules, worked with Audio engineers, game developers, producers etc. Now I'm running my own company " WaveScapeStudios" to develop more into the artist side of things and Talent Scouting. But you better have some creds to back this all up otherwise your silence WILL speak volumes .

Btw, whilst at Konami together with some friends we came up with a new Arpeggio phrasing and programming system called Advanced Arpeggio Programming (AAP). It's a much more focused and intuitive approach to using, applying and programming with the arpegiattor. NO ONE IS DOING ANYTHING REMOTELY LIKE IT !! Those sounds won't be found on your cheap soft synths sorry to say not in a million years.

Btw, if it's envy or jealousy IT WILL NEVER stop me sharing my music on this forum !! 

[Joshua]

Nope, I don't have much to brag about (thankfully). I've worked in commercial television and radio production for about ten years, so audio is my world. But I'm also a singer/keyboardist and my dream is to make it big in the industry. I've been working really hard on writing songs that I want to be comparable in quality to what's out there commercially. The same applies for production techniques, I'm not interested in doing a subpar job. Being a good listener is key to reaching that goal, and being able to criticize my own work until it's good enough is how all our heroes from Cheiron work. Don't put anything in the mix that's not good enough. So yeah, only time will tell if my end product is any good, but I promise to work at it until people I trust agree that it's up there with professional material.

Surely you don't think expensive synths are incapable of making rubbish sounds? You can have all the high end gear in the world and still produce crap, so don't fool yourself. New ways of programming an arpeggiator when your songs and production are average isn't going to blow anyone's minds either I'm afraid. Look back on the feedback the other guys here have given you and take it in your stride. Either that or go on believing we're all envious and then ask yourself in twenty years what went wrong.

[addicted]

Hey Guys,

i like the discussion here ;-)

Here`s a Songdemo from me. What do you think, any ideas to make it better. Thanks for your help

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3f23efbscrphzet/happy%2Bwithout%2Byou%2Bromy.mp3

[kmel]

Very interesting discussion re: melodic intervals! I was hoping we could take that discussion further. To this point we have only discussed song examples where these common intervals are applied, but I think it would be great to actually discuss those intervals, especially for those of us who are not musically trained and want to understand them. One of the things I was hoping to do -- and hopefully one or more of you would be willing to participate -- is to actually map out the melodies of Max's biggest hit songs (i.e. typing out the actual notes) and their accompanying chord progressions. By doing this we can begin to truly analyze the melodic formula of Max Martin, as well as understand which melodies work best with which chord progressions. Would anyone be willing to try this? If so, let's post the results here!

[fffdd]

This thread has gone a bit off-topic, but I just wanted to post a songwriting tutorial video I made a couple of years ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykYGXMURUew

It's my take on how Max might write a song, and has helped me write (what I think) are some good melodies. I won't make the mistake of claiming that they're objectively good for fear of derailing the thread again