You guys are too much into this Cheiron hype

[Dagge]

So, the amount of hubris here must exceed legal limits by far. Alright, so let's just quickly make this clear. I'm not saying these "ideas" are very bad, but you have clearly not understood a single thing about how Max and his disciples (also Rami etc. to some extent) write. There is zero hit factor in any of the snippets you just posted and really the simple answer to the statement that Shellback has made a lot of money: He is a very good songwriter! You are not, yet.

It's impossible to explain things to people who don't wanna understand, so I'm gonna try to avoid elaborating on why most of your statements in this thread are wrong. But basically, writing simple yet infectious melodies is incredible hard and you're definitely not the first (I include the 17 y/o me here...) to think that "everyone can do that". What makes me happy though is that you sir must be the first one I've come across who actually tried to "put up a shut up" and to no surprise failed miserably. Thank you for proving a previously hard to prove point!

Well Alex, looks like you think that you learned alot at your age of 17. I was same at your age But I have surprise for you, two of my examples were actual hits of those guys, note for note Other two used exat note snippets like those in hits. And what determines  hit potential? First 5-10 notes in a chorus. Looks like you have alot to learn ahead of you. Have a nice day

[AlexanderLaBrea]

Well Alex, looks like you think that you learned alot at your age of 17. I was same at your age But I have surprise for you, two of my examples were actual hits of those guys, note for note Other two used exat note snippets like those in hits. And what determines  hit potential? First 5-10 notes in a chorus. Looks like you have alot to learn ahead of you. Have a nice day

No, I was like YOU when I was 17 and ignorant. Luckily I have learnt a lot since then, partly by thoroughly analysing and writing music myself, and also by being in somewhat proximity of succesful songwriters. I could easily just turn your question around. IF you were able to write hits, why don't you have your millions? It's not hard to get the attention of major label people or A&R's. The hard part is actually writing hits. Just send your ideas or songs and cash in!

And I don't understand, what examples were "note for note" copies of Shellback hits? I don't recognize shit...

[Dagge]

No, I was like YOU when I was 17 and ignorant. Luckily I have learnt a lot since then, partly by thoroughly analysing and writing music myself, and also by being in somewhat proximity of succesful songwriters. I could easily just turn your question around. IF you were able to write hits, why don't you have your millions? It's not hard to get the attention of major label people or A&R's. The hard part is actually writing hits. Just send your ideas or songs and cash in!

And I don't understand, what examples were "note for note" copies of Shellback hits? I don't recognize shit...

OK Alex, I like calmed down tone of your last post so in regard to your claims I may add this. Mr Ulvaeus from ABBA said that they worked 8hr per day yet managed to make only one good song per month. By using his words, all other material they wrote was 'worthless'. As a contrast, a doc that worked at Cheiron said that Max would complete a song in less than a hour. Now, two question. If that is pure talent, how come that ABBA didnt compose a hit per day instead of churning out 95% cr*p.

Second question, is Max thus 200x more talented than Ulvaeus & Andersson (8hr x 25 days)? I really doubt it. What's different is that ABBA managed to compose real great pop hits that all sounded different, while Cheironers used mathematic 'methods and formulas' so their hits all sound the same (https://goo.gl/PeQbZt  and https://goo.gl/UC0O3E). Same structure, bass, chords, sounds, hooks. After market abandoned them they retweaked their methods slightly, added rock guitars and  more silly melodies and voila!.. their hit songs again sound all the same.

If we know that first 5-7 notes of a chorus melody determine whether it has a hit potential or not, and if we know that average song melody has up to 7 different notes involved, it comes out that there are only 130,000 different melody combinations possible. And that is only 1% of all songs written and published. Which means that you cannot be too talented and find those special notes because all note progressions are already 'occupied'. You can olny 'nick' other's material in a smart way (which Cheironers mastered) and mould it your way. A guy that worket at Stock Aitken Waterman hit factory said that they regularly threw them all out of studio because it was a session to listen and 'borrow' from other hit songs.

Max is a talented top-liner (melody writer) and his working habits are better than most musician's have. That's about all there is. Nothing to admire. If you decided to spend 8hrs a day for one whole week to tweak every one of those 7 chorus notes, your (and mine) melodies would also start to sound 'expensive'. It is a business decision and that is my answer why I'm not into it. I am not close to politics (decision makers) so I better invest my time in some other business.

Re. those two hitsongs on my demo, they are from Cheiron opus, not Shellback's. Most of those hits sound unimpressive when accompanied in a basic way like I did. You have to have everyday music taste for 'silly' songs to be able to recognize a hit (which is more important than talent). I can smell a hit on a mile. Back then, when I first heard Max songs in one movie, I instantly knew they would be hits, not knowingly who it is or who wrote it (it were NSync and BSB).

P.S. If I were in Stockholm like you are, nothing would stop me from getting those millions.

[georg_e]

With your attitude, you could live next DOOR to Max, and it wouldn't help get you "those  millions" :-)
But really, you should be on Gearslutz.com not here-- it's full of pointless threads of people saying pop music is easy, and if they "wanted to, they could easily" blah blah blah. But you are providing some comedy here, so keep going if you want 

[Dagge]

With your attitude, you could live next DOOR to Max, and it wouldn't help get you "those  millions" :-)
But really, you should be on Gearslutz.com not here-- it's full of pointless threads of people saying pop music is easy, and if they "wanted to, they could easily" blah blah blah. But you are providing some comedy here, so keep going if you want 

Dude nothing personal but my attitude is responsible for 98% of worldwide success. Learn something well and believe into yourself. I remember Dr. Alban said how people ridiculed him and Denniz for their work, but they kept on, and now same people admire them. I understood that maybe I spoiled your fan community here with more realistic than allowed views. That's the way I was raised, to tell the truth. I apologize for that but anyway it will not change reality.

From your side, reaction could be to present counter arguments in a decent way instead of private labeling. Anyway I wish you a nice day.

[georg_e]

Yawn.......Really, you're just too easy to waste any more time on. 

[nanofives]

The best thing anyone in this forum can do is sit and watch how he makes his millions.
But certainly ambition it's not bad.

[B Steady]

[...] Cheironers used mathematic 'methods and formulas' so their hits all sound the same (https://goo.gl/PeQbZt  and https://goo.gl/UC0O3E). Same structure, bass, chords, sounds, hooks.

I mean there's no denying these songs are very similar but definitely not the same. With your statement you leave completely unmentioned how cool they were to put in the parallel major of the key in the verses of We've Got It Goin' On (rest of the song is in a minor key, even the mid8 which has the same melody as the verse - again, how cool is that!).

[Dagge]

I mean there's no denying these songs are very similar but definitely not the same. With your statement you leave completely unmentioned how cool they were to put in the parallel major of the key in the verses of We've Got It Goin' On (rest of the song is in a minor key, even the mid8 which has the same melody as the verse - again, how cool is that!).

C'mon dude, of course it sounds good because it is nicked from classic composers standard chord progressions. Place where they seek 'inspiration' for chords (me too, ABBA did it also). JS Bach is endless treasure for nicking for example

[B Steady]

C'mon dude, of course it sounds good because it is nicked from classic composers standard chord progressions. Place where they seek 'inspiration' for chords (me too, ABBA did it also). JS Bach is endless treasure for nicking for example

was this even the subject of my post? did I say they invented their own chord progressions or something?

[Dagge]

was this even the subject of my post? did I say they invented their own chord progressions or something?

OK I'm over and out. No use

[Wolf Cousin]

I really appreciate Dagge's courage to come to the lion's den and say these things to light up a healthy discussion (Even though I'm not sure this was actually his intention). He knew all along he would have to take on a lot of ragging Cheiron/Max fans. I think he made a good point. It's very easy to get carried away when everybody is worshipping these guys like they are some kind of Greek Gods.

That being said, I don't agree with his point that these songs are easy to make.  Even if he is right, even if Max and his team work with a secret formula, then they deserve a lot of credit for coming up with it.

Some of those ideas Dagge made could actually work. But even then, this is barely 5% of what makes a hit song a hit.

[Dagge]

That being said, I don't agree with his point that these songs are easy to make.  Even if he is right, even if Max and his team work with a secret formula, then they deserve a lot of credit for coming up with it.

I feel abit upset because it looks like I wanted to stir hostage discussion, which was not intention. In a more serious tone, you are absolutely right, hit songs are not easy to made. As it is not easy to be a good surgeon, a lawyer or even a good salesman. It is a craft which can be learned and those guys mastered it and deserve kudos and respect. An A&R guy form Billboard interview someone posted here said right thing, Max Martin is a clever businessman. I would add businessman with a talent for melodies.

All those MXM guys that came from different life environment make similar songs, melodies, arrangement etc. It is highly unlikey tha they all have talent for same thing (strong pop melodies Cheiron way). At Cheiron beginnings other member stayed over night to learn (read: copy) Max and Denniz skills. Looks like that is a learned skill, plus healthy dose of a talent. In US there are thousands of signed staff writers (many talented) that try to place songs with ever shrinking set of top performers. Yet all of them seem to have less talent and success than a small number of MXM bunch which have songs allover chart. Highly unlikely to me, it must be something else.

To simplify things, every member of this forum has an ear for strong melody and pop song, that's the reason they are here appreciating Max thing. It means that all of them have a chance to tweak first 5-10 tones of a chorus melody until they start to like it (which means melody is strong). Max doest it in an hour, they may need a week or a month, it doesn't really matter. Make a topic and post your melodies for others to see. You will be positively surprised. Only condition is 'kill your babies' as Max said, do not settle until it really sounds strong to you. When you nail it, you will hear it and you will know, that's for sure. In a week from now, I will exactly know which of my posted melodies have a chance (if any). Chorus melody isn't everything but it is main part of a hit, everything else is doable. You members may even establish your own 'MXM' (thus SWS) songwriting team here. Make songs you would like to hear. If upset, create here a new anonimous profile. Other members may give constructive critic and co-writing suggestions like those MSM guys do. If MXM earns 20 mil yearly and Shellback AB 10, you may be satisfied with a pale million

[Axel]

This, sir, was a great post! Thanks for that!

[bugmenot]

Connections over song quality — are Martin's words.

I can't find exact quote, but it was on this forum years ago.

All these "rules" are a myth, a false. A confusing of cause and effect. Martin is doing this mistake too — the reason why a lot of their songs are bad and unsuccessful.

Analyze already written and successful song is moving backwards. Operant conditioning. There are million other causes why the song became a hit or skipped.

(I prefer neuropsychology studies.)