Magic Max Martin Formula

[sweetmelody]

In an interview I saw on youtube (and I think this was posted here before) Arnthor Birgisson talks about Max's formula (actually it was D. Pop's that Max learned): Never use more than three melodic parts in the song. If more than 3, fix it. Recycle parts of verse or parts of song in chorus. So when chorus comes you already heard part of it.

What do you guys think this means? Would really love to discuss and figure out this magical formula that Max has!

[j.fco.morales]

Can you post the interview here?

I don't think it makes sense, just three part can be boring.
But it's true that at least 2 -including different arrangements/programming- usually work.

[bugmenot]

Why use verse in chorus? It's only 2 parts, not even 3.

[j.fco.morales]

Why use verse in chorus? It's only 2 parts, not even 3.

The bridge/middle 8 with different chords.

[J_A24]

Yeah, that's a good mindset to have. It keeps the song cohesive and effective and each part is different enough so that it keeps things flowing and entertaining.

I think it's important to use the factor of familiarity in a pop song. Max sometimes uses the same parts in different sections of the song, but switches around the rhythm, the phrasing or adds something to the melody. It kinda makes it easier to understand for the listener. "Whataya Want From Me" is an example, "It's All Your Fault" by Pink too.

Another example I can find is Chris Martin from Coldplay, he often puts some part of the chorus in the verses. Like in the song "Paradise", the chorus is in the first verse.

Then again, there are no rules, whatever works works. As long as it sounds right.

[j.fco.morales]

I've tried some times unintentionally to fit a melody I wrote in a verse in a chorus and doesn't work for me at least... but I agree with you.

Maybe I should try again...

[Raul_esp]

It's very interesting , a pop song must have harmony and while it has less different parts it's more easy  , Genius.

[sweetmelody]

Can you post the interview here?

I don't think it makes sense, just three part can be boring.
But it's true that at least 2 -including different arrangements/programming- usually work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6jkDdc_b8I

[sweetmelody]

Some more info from various articles. Would love to discuss this further with the songwriters here. Especially the syllable counting thing. Let's discuss!

In writing lyrics, McKee adheres to the Swedish school of pop songwriting championed by Max Martin. Words are chiefly there to serve the melody. "It's very mathematical," McKee explained. "A line has to have a certain number of syllables, and the next line has to be its mirror image." I asked for an example, and she sang, "California girls, we're unforgettable, Daisy Dukes, bikinis on top," then said, "If you add one syllable, or take it away, it's a com- pletely different melody to Max. I can write something I think is so clever, but if it doesn't hit the ear right then Max doesn't like it."

My comment: This is what I'd like to know about most. I've heard some writers out of the Luke and Max camp mention this before. What exactly do you think they mean? Also, are there specific melodies they are using with these syllables? What do you think?

Shellback quote: "I quickly learned how a pop song is written. To simplify. To use the same melody through out the song but perhaps shift the octaves or just make slightly changes."

My comment: This goes back to what Arnthor talked about. Using the same melodies. Any one see examples of this in any of the big Max hits? Please post if you do! One example I saw was the "oh-oh-oh" in JLo's new song "First Love." It appears in the verses and hook.

I think these things give some more insight into what makes Max special.

[max_martin_fan]

Some more info from various articles. Would love to discuss this further with the songwriters here. Especially the syllable counting thing. Let's discuss!

In writing lyrics, McKee adheres to the Swedish school of pop songwriting championed by Max Martin. Words are chiefly there to serve the melody. "It's very mathematical," McKee explained. "A line has to have a certain number of syllables, and the next line has to be its mirror image." I asked for an example, and she sang, "California girls, we're unforgettable, Daisy Dukes, bikinis on top," then said, "If you add one syllable, or take it away, it's a com- pletely different melody to Max. I can write something I think is so clever, but if it doesn't hit the ear right then Max doesn't like it."

My comment: This is what I'd like to know about most. I've heard some writers out of the Luke and Max camp mention this before. What exactly do you think they mean? Also, are there specific melodies they are using with these syllables? What do you think?

Shellback quote: "I quickly learned how a pop song is written. To simplify. To use the same melody through out the song but perhaps shift the octaves or just make slightly changes."

My comment: This goes back to what Arnthor talked about. Using the same melodies. Any one see examples of this in any of the big Max hits? Please post if you do! One example I saw was the "oh-oh-oh" in JLo's new song "First Love." It appears in the verses and hook.

I think these things give some more insight into what makes Max special.

I belive Shellback is talking about instrumentals strictly there.

[sweetmelody]

I belive Shellback is talking about instrumentals strictly there.

No, it's about melodies. Why would you shift octaves in the instrumental track? Never happens.

[j.fco.morales]

Why? Counterpoint.

To add a different flavour to the melodies.

[max_martin_fan]

No, it's about melodies. Why would you shift octaves in the instrumental track? Never happens.

Well... just listen to the stuff Shellback produced, on top of my mind if you hear Raise Your Glass you can hear the same guitar riff over and over, doubled, one of those takes is shifted up an octave and panned. The same with Teenage Dream, I kissed a girl, etc...

[sweetmelody]

Yes, but let's analyze the quote:

"I quickly learned how a pop song is written. To simplify. To use the same melody through out..."

It says "written." If he was talking about the track then it should have read: "how a pop song is produced." Also, referring to "the same melody" is once again sounding like a reference to writing. Generally you don't refer to the track as the melody (although I do concede that the track can and does have melodic parts). Anyway, reading the article it has more context. You guys could be right, but I interpret the quote as a reference to songwriting. Either way, not trying to start a fight. 

[max_martin_fan]

Yes, but let's analyze the quote:

“I quickly learned how a pop song is written. To simplify. To use the same melody through out..."

It says "written." If he was talking about the track then it should have read: "how a pop song is produced." Also, referring to "the same melody" is once again sounding like a reference to writing. Generally you don't refer to the track as the melody (although I do concede that the track can and does have melodic parts). Anyway, reading the article it has more context. You guys could be right, but I interpret the quote as a reference to songwriting. Either way, not trying to start a fight. 

Yes, totally.
A nice example of the same melody could be ET - Katy Perry by Max, where you have the verse melody in the beginning of the chorus.
I belive he uses the same melody an octave higher for the sole propuse of creating tension and solving it. The tessitura in the voice can really help to achive it. It works as long as you have a nice prechorus that differs from it.