Magic Max Martin Formula

[sweetmelody]

Yes, totally.
A nice example of the same melody could be ET - Katy Perry by Max, where you have the verse melody in the beginning of the chorus.
I belive he uses the same melody an octave higher for the sole propuse of creating tension and solving it. The tessitura in the voice can really help to achive it. It works as long as you have a nice prechorus that differs from it.

Good example. The bolded part I think is the whole point of this trick. I think the chorus explodes a lot bigger with this trick.

[ferser1]

Why? Counterpoint.

To add a different flavour to the melodies.

adding to that, check out ,Tell me why, by Jessica Folker, the first chorus and last, you hear a difference in pitch

[the3rd]

Guys, remember that this recycling of melody bits can be more or less obvious. An obvious way to do it would be to put an entire hook-line octaved down in the verse (like "Whataya Want From Me") but it could also be parts of a hook-line in different phrasing or with a different instrument.

I have come to use a method where I, in the writing process where basic chorus and verse melodies are sorted out, try to recycle bits (or pre-cycle, i.e using chorus bits in the verses) and make sure there are spaces between recycling.

Just like the verses are spaces between recycled choruses, a bridge could be a space between a pre-cycled chorus and the actual chorus.

This kind of varied repetition really goes through the whole music production process from writing to arranging etc. Drum patterns, for example, usually just go about their business but are varied with fills, when the amount of repetition is "just right".

Recycling and pre-cycling plays a huge part in making a song easy to remember. And this applies to much more than music since humans in general find patterns exciting. When styling your home for example, a good rule is to stick to just one or very few colours, and using similar coloured wood on the floor as in your furniture is pleasing to the eye.

[J_A24]

Guys, remember that this recycling of melody bits can be more or less obvious. An obvious way to do it would be to put an entire hook-line octaved down in the verse (like "Whataya Want From Me") but it could also be parts of a hook-line in different phrasing or with a different instrument.

I have come to use a method where I, in the writing process where basic chorus and verse melodies are sorted out, try to recycle bits (or pre-cycle, i.e using chorus bits in the verses) and make sure there are spaces between recycling.

Just like the verses are spaces between recycled choruses, a bridge could be a space between a pre-cycled chorus and the actual chorus.

This kind of varied repetition really goes through the whole music production process from writing to arranging etc. Drum patterns, for example, usually just go about their business but are varied with fills, when the amount of repetition is "just right".

Recycling and pre-cycling plays a huge part in making a song easy to remember. And this applies to much more than music since humans in general find patterns exciting. When styling your home for example, a good rule is to stick to just one or very few colours, and using similar coloured wood on the floor as in your furniture is pleasing to the eye.

Great post.

[sweetmelody]

Great thread from another site:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/songwriting/951308-max-martin-dr-luke-counting-syllables.html

[bugmenot]

Working with Luke is different because Luke comes from the Max Martin school where they spend three or four days on the melody, then they put words to it. Ninety-five percent of our songs is the first thing that came to mind. We make music off of feeling and Luke makes music off of science. It's a formula. We would fight and argue. Most people in the room with Luke are like, 'Man, we're working with Luke!' We're like 'I don't give a fuck how much Number Ones you got. I ain't doing that bullshit!'

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/features/r-city-two-caribbean-brothers-20-year-journey-from-poverty-to-the-top-ten-20151102

[J_A24]

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/features/r-city-two-caribbean-brothers-20-year-journey-from-poverty-to-the-top-ten-20151102

Lol, I wouldn't call it science, more like high standards and perfectionism.

[Cheiron Meets Thizz]

Wasn't it 3 ideally . . but 4 at most?

[soundoffhear]

I put the quotes together from Arnthor and Andres Carlsson and we covered this topic in depth on another thread with additions from others:
http://www.swedishsongs.de/smf/index.php?topic=3091.0

Mind you, these are all off the top of my head and by no means an in depth study. These examples are rare in that they have mostly more than 2 note runs in which the intervals of the melodies from one song are replicated in another. The whole point here is showing that intervals that work are recycled for other songs. And the fact that we can see them so blatently used as first lines of chorus and chorus wrap ups is not so common. The trick as I said that most composers do is to use intervals sparingly here and there as to disguise them.

There are advanced techniques that I'm sure he is using and has practiced in his years of crafting. These techniques include taking the arc of a melodic line from one really good song and carving out everything except the notes that land on the strong beats (1 and 3 and the pickup prior to 1 again) then filling out the intervals around that skeleton. It is a case by case basis. At the end of the day these practices are for professional songwriters to keep their songs juiced and stay relevant year after year. You can just write songs off of instinct. And that is usually where the germ of an idea will still be used by people like Max, he then will start applying the techniques to flesh it out.

The truth about melodic math is Max Martin doesn't do anything that other composers don't. He is just more dedicated and uses all of the songwriting practices (matching syllable cadences, giving upbeat production to minor melody, tweaking intervals to boost the song, trimming the number of sections and moving parts to just the essential). He in fact says that there is no formula, pop songwriting is very difficult and he just works harder than a lot of other songwriters.

Backstreet - Shape of my heart/Celine - That's the way it is
first line chorus "looking back"/first line chorus "when you want"
end chorus "shape of my heart"/end chorus "that's the way it is"
BONUS I WANT IT THAT WAY BRIDGE ("From the way that it used to be, yeah")/Celine "I know what you're going through, yeah"

Avril - What the Hell/ P!nk - U + Ur Hand/Cosgrove - Oh Oh
Avril verse "making out with your friend/P!nk verse"know that it's going down"
Avril verse "messing with your head"/Cosgrove prechorus "why don't we make a move"/P!nk prechorus "put his hands on me"
P!nk chorus "You don't wanna mess with me tonight"/Cosgrove chorus "If you think I'll cry for you tonight"/Avril chorus "save me, baby, baby"
BONUS Katy HOT N COLD "someone call a doctor"/Avril What the Hell "If you love me, if you hate me"

Katy - One that Got Away/Backstreet - I Just Want You to Know
first line verse "summer after highschool"/first line verse "looking at your picture"
first line chorus "in another life"/first line chorus "i just want you to know"
chorus "we keep all the promises"/chorus "some days we make it through"
BONUS Kelly first line of chorus "Since U been gone"/Backstreet first line of chorus "I just want you to know"

Britney - U Drive Me Crazy/Backstreet - Larger than Life/Bon Jovi - It's My Life
The Britney melody only differs in that the scale was changed so that the 7th was not flattened (The songs came out within the same week. So probably being written around the same time, the skeleton of one was probably used for the other and he just raised the 7th in Lucky to not mimick the Larger than Life melody too much)
Backstreet verse "I'mma run and hide when you're screaming"/Bon Jovi prechorus "I ain't gonna be another face in"
Britney end of chorus "It feels so right"/Bon Jovi chorus "Heart is like an open highway"
Britney chorus thinking of you keeps me... "up all night"/Bon Jovi end chorus..."it's my life"
Britney prechorus "everytime you look at me"/Backstreet prechorus "all of our time's spent"/BONUS Britney OOPS! I DID IT AGAIN prechorus "Cause to lose all my senses"

Ke$ha - Blow/Britney - 3
"blow"/"180 degrees and I'm caught in between"

Tao Cruz - Dynamite/Usher - Scream
"saying ay-oh"/"scream yea-ah"

Katy - California Gurls/Jessie J - Domino
"You could travel the world"/"Every second is a highlight"

I'll leave the final two examples for someone else to have fun with. They are two of the easiest comparisons, you can use my method of quoting the intervals if you like!

Backstreet - The Call/Britney - Overprotected/N Sync - It's Gonna Be Me
Katy - Hot n Cold/Kelly - My Life Would Suck