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Cheiron Sound.. need your help!

Started by maxmartin'sfan, February 18, 2007, 10:34:37 AM

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Feelgoodlies

I liked you demo Andrea..., can you do more?, btw do you have the full one?

Rebecca

Thanks Andrea, that's really nice. I'd love to hear more too.

secski

Wow, andrea!

That was great!

Got the guitar strumming just right lol, they had a strumming pattern they liked using over and over i believe if you check out midi reproductions of their songs. :)

Looking forward to hearing more from you.

Raul_esp

#93
Quote from: Rebecca on March 02, 2007, 10:36:29 AM
Wow, it's so great to have some songwriters on this forum!

I don't know if you guys have seen this, it's the Q & A from tonos.com with Max Martin, he answers questions about songwriting. I got this from the behind the music website a few years ago, a great site devoted to Swedish songwriters that doesn't exist anyore. I think you had to be member of tonos to read this article. I dug this out last weekend.

Here it is: http://www.maxmartinfansite.com/Tonos.htm

this is the most interesting thing I have read ever , thanks so much Rebecca !! I hadnt seen it .

there isnt way to contact with him nowadays  :'( I have so much to questions to make my idol .

*Sabine*

Quote from: Raul_esp on October 21, 2008, 12:52:43 AM
Quote from: Rebecca on March 02, 2007, 10:36:29 AM
Wow, it's so great to have some songwriters on this forum!

I don't know if you guys have seen this, it's the Q & A from tonos.com with Max Martin, he answers questions about songwriting. I got this from the behind the music website a few years ago, a great site devoted to Swedish songwriters that doesn't exist anyore. I think you had to be member of tonos to read this article. I dug this out last weekend.

Here it is: http://www.maxmartinfansite.com/Tonos.htm

this is the most interesting thing I have read ever , thanks so much Rebecca !! I hadnt seen it .

there isnt way to contact with him nowadays  :'( I have so much to questions to make my idol .

Yes, like you I saw that too late... but it WAS great!

Rebecca

Yes, that Q & A with Max is amazing!!
I found it on a site that Linda (LJ) had put together but Linda's does not exist anymore.

basfet

The Dagge productions was (and is) so great and groovy! Listen to the groove and snaredrum on Yessica Folckers Tell me what you like and even The Britney S Oops and Baby- these mostly still sound like Dagge prods- funky, nice and dry but big.(Max Martin is a good songwriter but Dagge created the cool and funky ground prod.-sound of cheiron- därmed basta) That snaredrum.. Where does it come from? Its so puncy and fat- anybody knows?

*Sabine*

I have no idea where it comes from but yes, I think these FAT drums are the best way to describe the Cheiron productions. This unique sound wouldn't have existed without Denniz. All the rhytmic pattern is thanks to him. I think they were a super team with Max cause Max is even better at creating melodies.

Alex Martin


cheironlover

Quote from: Tommy Nelson on August 01, 2007, 10:24:09 PM
The Piano from ...Baby one more time "Da dent dent" is the M1 "piano 16" played on the lower keys and put through a light distortion effect. I know 100% for sure, I have the sound and play it all the time. In regards to a "Jupiter 8" ??? If you say so! Yes, they did use (real) analog synths. Denniz PoP's favorite was the Roland Juno-106 (not Jupiter), which Denniz only had one of that he kept with him in studio 1. The same with the Yamaha DX-7, they had only one and kept it in studio 2. In regards to the Roland JV-1080, I played one (with expantions) once in a music shop and heard no familiar "Cheiron" sounds. And it's not even on the list of equipment they used... The "JV-2080" was what they did have. One in each studio room. And even at that, I don't hear the "JV" as often as you say at all whatsoever. Much much more can be found in the M1(with expantion cards) and Trinity than the "JV" series rack synths. And the M1 was NOT considered to be "too old" in the 90's by the Cheiron crew. Especialy Denniz and Kristian. In fact, Denniz kept using the (even older) Juno-106 (from 1984) well into the 90's up until the end. I don't think HE considered it to be "Outdated"... :!:

OK So, What about the bass slap sounds you hear in a lot of cheiron songs??? ???

Strumpan

Quote from: *Sabine* on December 12, 2008, 09:55:07 AM
I have no idea where it comes from but yes, I think these FAT drums are the best way to describe the Cheiron productions. This unique sound wouldn't have existed without Denniz. All the rhytmic pattern is thanks to him. I think they were a super team with Max cause Max is even better at creating melodies.
Oh yes, the drum arrangements are the the real Denniz/Cheiron trademark, always perfect and always i harmony with the song. For me, the typical Denniz trademark is, of course, the backbeat, and that great snaredrum that sounds like a mash between a snare, a handclap and a rimshot that he used trough out his whole career. For example: Ace of base - All that she want's. Papa Dee - The first cut is the deepest. Backstreet Boys - As long as you love me. N*sync - I want you back. Does anybody have more information regarding this?

cheironlover

Yeah where'd that one come from! The mash between a low-end snare, wide clap, and the rimshot come from? The M1, Trinity, or the Akai?

Tony G.

Hey fellers,

I'm not sure if there's stil any life in this thread but for those, who are interested:

I personally think, Westhaven is right: It's important to talk about Songwrtiting and Arraning, too when we talk about the Cheiron Sound, not only about the Synths.

If you are interested in my analysis, then here is sth. to read:

At first I want to analyse melody and lyrics:

What I noticed while listening carefully to Cheiron productions is the strong and right connection between melody and harmony. "Right" means that the meldody is (w/out approach notes) on strong beats and mostly the root, third, or fifth the chord. Write out vocal sheets that contain melody, chord and lyrics. Then you'll know what I mean. Another aspect is the relation between repetition and new material. A very old Scheme from the Tin Pan Alley Era is the A - B - A - C form (although most of the Jazz musicians just talk about the A - A - B - A form). They used this A - B - A - C a lot at Cheiron.

For instance:
A My loneliness is killing me
B I must confess, I still believe
A When I'm not with you I lose my mind
C Give me a sign Hit me baby one more time

Look at the first line and sing the melody then the third one. Do you notice that the first line has the same melody as the second? It's like

A Statement
B Expansion
A Repeat the statement
C Conclusion!

This is only one possible form.

This is one possibility the bring structure in songs. Another one is the use of sequences:

This is an excerpt from It's Gonna Be Me ('N Sync)

Every little thing I do
Never seems enough for you

The second line has the same rhythm as the first one. The melody is also the same but starts on aonther degree:

Every little thing I do -> 5 4 b3 2 1 5 4

Never seems enough for you -> 4 b3 2 1 b7 4 b3

It's also very important that the the link between the lyrics structure and the melody structure is strong, for instance:

All you people can't you see, can't you see
How your love's affecting our reality
Everytime we're down You can make it right
And that makes you larger than life

The melody is like three lines the same and the last time is a new idea. That fits to the lyrics; the last time is the conclusion of the three upper lines and needs a different melody.

About the song title in Cheiron's music:

It's either at the beginning or at the end of the chorus:

Examples:

My loneliness is killing me
I must confess, I still believe
When I'm not with you I lose my mind
Give me a sign Hit me baby one more time

All you people can't you see, can't you see
How your love's affecting our reality
Everytime we're down, You can make it right
And that makes you larger than life

The first thing is like I'm telling you I'm loney. That takes three lines and the fourth line is the rap-up, like "So regarding all this, I want you to hit me, baby, one more time."

The second one is like "Blah, blah, blah and all this blah blah blah what I just told you makes you larger than life."

Variant II:

Show me the meaning of being lonely
Is this the feeling I need to walk with
Tell me why I can't be there where you are
There's something missing in my heart

I want you to want me
For all that I am
I hope that you will try to understand
Do you feel the same
Do you feel the same

This more like I tell you something and then I'll explain it or the consequences.

Very important: The connection between Chords, Melody and Lyrics

Now I'm interested what you guys think about it. I am right? At leat partly?

I'm going to write sth. about harmony and arranging tomorrow or so.

OverPop

I like your approach, there's definitely a lot more to their songwriting technique than we think.

btw sent you PM  ;)

Raul_esp

It was really amazing , very interesting , great analysis!