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Industry Topline Method

Started by ModernJohn, April 15, 2020, 05:46:16 PM

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ModernJohn

I recently was listening to Ava Max - Sweet But Psycho when I realized how similar the song was to Jay Sean - Down. Even when disregarding the arrangement, the Topline melody seemed to be identical at some points. So I found midi files for the Toplines, made them the same key and I got this:

https://i.imgur.com/OJcVSW3.jpg

Now, not only are the majority of the notes in that section of the chorus the same but even the rhythm. One of the main producers on the song was Cirkut, who is a frequent collaborator of Max's (Dark Horse, Roar, etc). This leads me to wonder if they have a system where they essentially paint by numbers and fill in the song using parts of older hits? I know the decision for the melody could have been subconscious, but I feel like there's something a bit strange going on in this song.

ModernJohn

If not exactly the notes, what seems to happen is the "rhythm" of the notes which can be described as the duration, distance and frequency of notes from a template song seems to be lifted while putting a different melodic twist on it.

Snipes3000

#2
I have said this before on this forum: John Seabrook writes about it in his book The Hit Machine. Therein, Dr Luke speaks about this 'system' so there is your INSIDE INFORMATION. In a nutshell, it has a lot to do with (Guy) 'Zapoleon Rule of Three', in conjunciton with what brain scientists have published about the effects on the brain when one is hearing a (kind of) familiar tune.

You can always PM me if you want to discuss this topic in detail or when you have a high level of knowledge about it.
Hi, I'm Luke and I'm sitting on my throne! Oh, and have you noticed that Denniz PoP songs are extremely hooky?

McCartneyMartin

#3
Quote from: Snipes3000 on April 15, 2020, 07:08:16 PM
I have said this before on this forum: John Seabrook writes about it in his book The Hit Machine. Therein, Dr Luke speaks about this 'system' so there is your INSIDE INFORMATION. In a nutshell, it has a lot to do with (Guy) 'Zapoleon Rule of Three', in conjunciton with what brain scientists have published about the effects on the brain when one is hearing a (kind of) familiar tune.

You can always PM me if you want to discuss this topic in detail or when you have a high level of knowledge about it.

I would like to know how we got to this point in pop music that it must be done by this "formala". The 90s kinda started it, the 2000s crafted it, & 2010s perfected it. Was it because of "Soundscan" back in 1991 when they started to make a hit formula to use over and over, cheapening the structure of the song. I was thinking did Max start this current tread of songwriting that uses this or was it even earlier like in the 80s. Was it even Denniz PoP's idea for it back when he used to DJ?

I mean how can we go from stuff complex as Paul McCartney's Silly Love Songs, Madonna's Like A Prayer, Prince's Let Go Crazy, or even anything from Stock Aitken Waterman with extended instrumental parts & groovy choruses to basic 4/4 songs like Katy Perry's Teenage Dream, Taylor Swift's Shake It Off or even Imagine Dragons' Demons?  Songs 2008 + today are 98% Vocal, 2% Instrumental, sometimes listen to them on repeat makes me feel like I'm breathing air on Mars but you can't because everything is smuttered right off the bat. My Opinion BTW

ModernJohn

All I know is that this "formula" definitely isn't used or used correctly by most Pop Songwriters, even professionals. There is something very different sounding specifically about the vocal melody in songs that have producers like Max Martin, Dr. Luke etc on them.

bugmenot

Your picture shows that this short piece of a melody is 135 5353? It's so basic, it imitates bird singing. Melodies build of triads and quintas are not formula, they are green noice.

Snipes3000

------how we got to this point in pop music that it must be done by this "formula"
TLDR: In my view, beginners and laymen who become aware of the fact that advanced musicians know that there are some powerful choices then call it a formula and started spreading the word. But the term 'a theory of excellence' would be more suitable. Such is a natural result of devotion for a craft.

Most people who are not creative artists assume that music just comes out like that. That it is a God given gift and not something people have worked for every day of their life. Beginners - who are made aware of artists who create boundaries within their territory of choices (E.g. going for I-IV-V in a progression) - then think it is some kind of magic, it is a formula. They assume wrong! With time, the choices that you can make will be limited to those of which you know are effective. Some would refer to that as experience rather than a formula. It is a form of excellence. 'Excellence is never an accident. It is always the result of high intention, sincere effort, and intelligent execution; it represents the wise choice of many alternatives - choice, not chance, determines your destiny' (Aristotles). Advanced artists know that it's not a formula. It is a creation of boundaries in the hundreds of choices one could make. Why is this artist delivering something so excellent? Because he has explored the choices available, thought about it, let it rippen in his mind and eventually concluded that of the thousand of choices there are actually for example 10 good choices. 8 of the 10 he observed by watching the great ones and the other two were something he liked personally. It is not a formula, it is the phenomen called fingerspitzengefühl and its foundation is built on a theory of excellence.

------------how can we go from stuff complex ... to basic 4/4 songs like Katy Perry's Teenage Dream
People change, their concentration bow changes. People used to be in the theatre for 8 hours in Shakespeares time to watch his stuff. Whenever a theatre group wants to do a Shakespeare play now, they always do a heavily modified version, because people don't want and can't watch a show for 8 hours.

Maybe my response is totally going in a direction you did not want to go, but it was just some first thoughts.

Hi, I'm Luke and I'm sitting on my throne! Oh, and have you noticed that Denniz PoP songs are extremely hooky?

j.fco.morales

At this point, everything is done.

I think there is no proper "logic" in terms of writing: the emotion surrounding the song and the delivery from the artist.
Or maybe the sonics of the arrangements, the production... but nothing's new at this point.

McCartneyMartin

Quote from: j.fco.morales on April 17, 2020, 02:46:13 AM
At this point, everything is done.

I think there is no proper "logic" in terms of writing: the emotion surrounding the song and the delivery from the artist.
Or maybe the sonics of the arrangements, the production... but nothing's new at this point.
exactly no bothering reinventing the wheel now. Pretty much every genre has been done except for thumping I call 'trap blues" basically taking the sound of the blues and adding hi hats and sub base with harmonicas and guitars throughout it. Think of BB King or Muddy Waters meets Future or Lil Uzi Vert. You could say Lil Bad x is pioneering country trap which was a spinoff of country rap, the same could be said about "Trap Blues".