"Price Tag" on a beat......

[georg_e]

         So there's alot of lawsuits over melodies in songs -- this one -- over "Price Tag" -- is different cuz it involves a famous beat.  There's no doubt it's an iconic beat, but to me it's also kinda generic, so I'm wondering if they actually have a case....I mean, unless you outright use the original recording of a beat -- a sample -- do you have to pay a license fee to use it?  http://www.scribd.com/doc/193833778/New-Old-Music-Group-v-Gottwald-Jessie-J-Price-Tag-lawsuit   Scroll down, you can read the whole case.....

www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrFKAX6okFw   Doesn't show it on the video, but this group was on Atlantic Records with this album.....

Did some research...it would seem you do need a license for certain types of beats.....http://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/what-it-be-copy-right-infringement-to-use-someone--888118.html

[j.fco.morales]

It's called "sample clearance".

The owner of the rights needs to approve the use of his recording

[georg_e]

It's called "sample clearance".

The owner of the rights needs to approve the use of his recording

Thanks.  I'm not a lawyer (although I play one one TV :-)   but after re-reading this/listening, etc here's what I think......they gonna have to pay up on this one, because if it went to a jury like they're demanding, they'd have to pay even more.

[georg_e]

Update today....

    http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/judge-wants-dr-luke-stand-813992

[NeutronSynergy]

the principle here is interesting , although in practice things might be a little different.

What do you think about software piracy regarding music software?

[NeutronSynergy]

certain types of beats.....http://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/what-it-be-copy-right-infringement-to-use-someone--888118.html

Yes. a synchronization license. (i.e., ask permission for all copyrights in commercial products) High ranks speaking there - It seems that the company have a strong case against Lukasz Gottwald as that 'beat' (that would be precise information of audio data on an recorded medium) was included on the Warner beat anthology.

[georg_e]

Yes. a synchronization license. (i.e., ask permission for all copyrights in commercial products) High ranks speaking there - It seems that the company have a strong case against Lukasz Gottwald as that 'beat' (that would be precise information of audio data on an recorded medium) was included on the Warner beat anthology.

One thing for sure: that judge could probably get a gig as a drummer by now: I read most of his 27 page opinion (link in article), and the level of detail about drumming techniques is
mind blowing :-D

[NeutronSynergy]

   One thing for sure: that judge could probably get a gig as a drummer by now: I read most of his 27 page opinion (link in article), and the level of detail about drumming techniques is
mind blowing :-D

all 27 pages! Is that healthy? , but you're not the only one

[NeutronSynergy]

     .they gonna have to pay up on this one, because if it went to a jury like they're demanding, they'd have to pay even more.

Not saying that both of these parties wouldn't have enormous budgets to throw peanuts + publicity theatre..
But

particularly given the low threshold of creativity necessary to find a work original

- then how much creativity is necessary?

It can go the other way too..

"the similarities between Zimba Ku and Price Tag nevertheless do not sufficiently raise an inference of copying. At this point in the litigation, however, the Court cannot conclude as a matter of law that no reasonable juror could infer, on the current record, that the creators of Price Tag copied Zimba Ku."

It definitely brings a grim on your face when thinking about people being auditioned on the court with Jackson 5 and TimbaKu - . what a groovy occasion it must be. as you can measure these things thru technology by a fact.

the question is how much Dr.L is ready to pursue "prior art" against New old music group, inc as the reality of this case is very clear , bad luck? Gamble? (as producing with sampling is a bit of an gamble) it could be different if this case would be about a 'melody pattern which no one own's '
as there's been substantial drama and changes on previous similar kind of cases , as the defendant would have a hard time to describe abstracts outside the recorded
medium , which is the key thing - use of copyrighted recorded material and the possible violation of such intellectual property rights.

after that point it really reveals the subjective side of things..and illuminates ingredients about personalities on the court, which ultimately will give the true motives of action ,
if yet unclear for some reason.

if for example Martin Sandberg would be sued over for using an un-authorized sample that he didn't know of but was (Can you spot one)
actually included without permission in one of his synthesizers and thru that on a certain multimillion sold nr.1- charting single..

then ( there are thousands of sound sources on such units ) he would still be held responsible for it (or not)
Would that be fair / right - NO - but is it fair to dismiss authors/copyright owners basic right for his work ?

but the problem in this New old music,Inc vs Kasz money publishing scenario - is the static nature of the Plaintiff's case,
So as that case enters to the next level...what is it about then if not the principle ? There's no room for "undo button".

the legal system works both ways, even when it comes down to serve such plots
where the system is let to be a slot machine.

It's more about irony then , as the song lyrics suggest to "forget the price tag" .
the Plaintiff could (and probably will) easily even hold their argument just for the principle of it.

There are number of people who are concerned about these issues , a few well known names to come in mind are ,
Chick Corea, Björn Ulvaeus, Benny Andersson, P.Roger Nelson.Eric Persing, Quincy Jones,etc..

What can happen on behalf of Gottwald is that:

A) Master tapes of the ZimbaKu - would mysteriously disappear. and some of the original players would then come to the court saying that the drum part was actually
recorded on un-documented circumstances. and that the actual credits belong to the long disappeared uncle of the original drummer.
B) They would (Kasz money) decide to ditch the ethics and come out with such revelation that in fact the song uses a royalty free sample or very convincing sounding sequence of an analog drum machine or actual recorded live drums with only inspirational creative minded approach- towards that song.
C) they will settle.
D) They come more open about the use of that samples while admitting only 15 - 35 percent of original sample usage compared to the prevailing suspect and that the rest of such part is recreated with only inspirational respect towards the original authors work so in the end roughly 80% - 90% - of that part would be then actually done by Dr. L and friends..This would substantially shift the creativity part of the defendant over the originality aspect of the Plaintiff.

naturally such evidences would have to appear from the time of that song (Forget the price) writing.
and such point's would have to be presented already at this stage of the process.

as none of that is true.
It comes back again to the principle and to the basics. if the quality of music is determined by the value of music - what happens to the music itself?  This is the question which Spotify is asking : from the value of the recordings.

[Rebecca]

      Thanks.  I'm not a lawyer (although I play one one TV :-)   but after re-reading this/listening, etc here's what I think......they gonna have to pay up on this one, because if it went to a jury like they're demanding, they'd have to pay even more.

George, are you on tv?

Dr Luke is in trouble so much these days! yeah, it's probably best if he just settles and moves on.

[georg_e]

George, are you on tv?

Dr Luke is in trouble so much these days! yeah, it's probably best if he just settles and moves on.

    Hey Rebecca-- lol, no I'm not on TV: there was a line from a famous TV ad in U.S.  a few years ago, for some product where the actor says "I'm not a doctor, though I play one on TV" :-D
It became almost like a cliche line people would joke about here in U.S.

[Rebecca]

oh that is really funny! thanks George

[Adam B]

For those of you that haven't realized it yet -it's not a sample they are suing over, it's the rythm in itself!  The blurred lines lawsuit opened the door to this, in America apparently you can have copyright over entire genres..

If this goes throuh I'll guess the Bill Haley estate will have some money coming in.. 

Gottwald's success as a pop music producer has been credited to his use of hip hop drum compsitions in pop songs performed by female artists.

Ok, now we know it. The secret is out!!

[NeutronSynergy]

-it's not a sample they are suing over, it's the rythm in itself! 

a rhythm on a recorded format . outside of it - it becomes obsolete - (that might be 'in theory' - what a case!) this is crucial as it remains to be seen (possibly)
in the next phase.

But the plaintiff uses the term "interpolation" manufactured from Goldsmith's song .
When observed purely as creative plagiarized copyright infringement there is a recorded format as an reference because of the nature of this case..

In 1987, The JAMs released 1987 (What the Fuck Is Going On?). 1987 was produced using many unauthorized samples that plagiarized a wide range of musical works. They were ordered by the Mechanical-Copyright Protection Society to destroy all unsold copies of the album because of the uncleared samples, after a complaint from ABBA.

"Because the judge concludes that a genuine issue of fact exists as to whether actual copying has occurred, he defers taking up the arguments that the "Zimba Ku" drumming was sampled. As the case continues, though, that issue will also be explored"

So it remains to be seen..

it would be actually quite interesting to observe which side of the fence would really push this argument of suing western theory - drumming in general, (or rhythm) because it's even more challenging to comprehend to if someone is claiming to own the western music theory, figures on a sheet paper or drumming in general 

[NeutronSynergy]

I found it personally repulsive to "dig other people's trash". and all such "yellow press" information more or less meant for the brain dead if not to make you one.

But driving sometimes with the hypothesis glasses on won't hurt , for example spectrumid - have this song :
https://soundcloud.com/spectrumid/dune-v31-edit-2-rt

It rises some copyright questions. It might be that as Universal get's more involved into soundcloud -
some might find it problematic. (this is how ever a non profit song at the moment)

Nevertheless the principle of the topic remains interesting , If you would dig close enough you would
find reasons to sue for example Spotify - and probably for far more greater issues than the "Forget the price tag" - trial is about.

http://www.theverge.com/2016/1/9/10743032/spotify-lawsuit-copyright-infringement-music-royalities
200 million.

Determining by the turbulance around - Dr . himself : sometimes life is like this Joel Schumacher's movie:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1674784/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_21

Which is actually a direct reference of the biblical verse: Matthew 7:24-27
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trespass_(2011_film)

It applies to all aspects of the movie , since the development of the characters relies so heavily on to the moral choices they make..
Those of you who have some age under their belts know that life is eventually applied with certain let's say 'differentiation' - process.  It's visible
yet invisibe at the same time

Wolf's - they operate on a radius - which is determined by their nest.
Wolf's hardly never venture alone - or far from others ,  and even if so then the batch is usually divided.

If you suspect the recent trial's even by a margin - you notice that it isn't necessarily a person vs person - or just a case vs case  -
it is more like a person vs a batch of...

"Not all house dealers are to be trusted "

In old days - to completely destroy the wolf you had to destroy their nest. ie. kill them all.
Wolf is never just one - that's another point of that Schumacher's movie -
where an isolated system meets a batch of criminals which results into a micro-observation about the balance of morality
and it's direct variable effect with sociological static and non static fundamentals

(An upper class family enjoying priviliged life aside from others in the woods area of the village -
in a house with extremely high security system )

In that movie -to survive- all characters are tempted to join the evil ones's and all of their previous
actions are determined by these events  - it's a thrilling moment to realize that everything you've done -means nothing - that all the things you though
you were standing upon , everything you've achieved , even the tides of time - melts away -  and that everything that is - is determined by this moment.

so they have to proof their morality (including the previous decicions which on top they have built their lifes)
to be on the 'righteous side' - and overcome the villains. the reflection of that bible verse Matthew 7:24-27 is direct on all layers on that movie.

The problem in biblical terms however is - that only lamb's are tested..
Wolf's - are known to perform agonistic* attacks as well.

--

the case is that - it either is your original music on the record or not. 
everything else is a joke - like getting sued for being inspired of something.

In the movie "Trespass" everything the man had in his possession - was questioned -
because what he really owned was that part of the fortune which wasn't achieved
by dealing with the wolfs.

*(less reasonable or random)

The principle of course is money - if not the music itself.  how ever nothing would exist in this forum without the music.

'forget the Price Tag' since ' we're gonna blow'