Hi guys!
Does anyone here on the forum know anything about the songwriting/production techniques/formulas/rules that the Cheiron used? Yeah, I guess many of you are thinking; "There is no rules etc ..."
I think that there is no way that every producer that came out of Cheiron (Max Martin, Rami Yacoub, Kristian Lundin, Andreas Carlsson etc.) could've had this enormous success without having some fundamental tricks or formula up their sleeve.
By techniques/formulas/rules I mean stuff like "You should try not to have more than 3 melodic parts" or "The chorus should hit in after 40 seconds" or "The verse melody ideally should not contain tonic - so it builds up tension to be released in the chorus"
... I think you get it!
So, what did Denniz Pop teach the guys to have in mind when aiming for a great pop song?
I think there are. Listen to all their songs, analyze them and write down the techniques. They use almost the same formula.
I have a question though... what do you mean by "You should try not to have more than 3 melodic parts"?
/Mel
Quote from: shisho on January 15, 2014, 02:02:37 PM
I think there are. Listen to all their songs, analyze them and write down the techniques. They use almost the same formula.
I have a question though... what do you mean by "You should try not to have more than 3 melodic parts"?
/Mel
Maybe he meant verse / chorus / mid8
It's referring to keeping different melodies to a minimum......read somewhere recently where Max said the listener can only handle a couple of melody ideas, so stick to just a few. Think of "Hot 'n Cold" for example......
So he probably means motifs. Isn't normally the rule of thumb in pop songs to use one motif per song which is developed across the song?
Quote from: shisho on January 15, 2014, 02:53:38 PM
So he probably means motifs. Isn't normally the rule of thumb in pop songs to use one motif per song which is developed across the song?
I don't think they necessarily have to be developed across the song -- they CAN be of course -- but every song is different. I really think just keeping in mind the general concept of simplicity is all that's needed :-)
Max did some amazing variations with the choruses post middle 8, same chords, same words, different melody.
Very interesting , I think 3 differentes melodies in a pop song is the perfect , maybe 4 if we count the bridge that sometimes is a new melody.
well, the question is: what is a melody? you can count a whole verse as one melody but you can also say, only 2 bars are one melody and then the next melody is coming in
I think it's better to identify the different parts of the song first: A - A1 - B - A - A1 - B - C - B x2
Quote from: B Steady on January 16, 2014, 12:49:17 AM
well, the question is: what is a melody? you can count a whole verse as one melody but you can also say, only 2 bars are one melody and then the next melody is coming in
For me a melody is an group of chords that are repeated Succesively , In a pop song the verse usually cointains an only melody , The chorus and Middle 8 the same.
You can to have too a melody with one chord but I prefer a melody longer.
Quote from: Raul_esp on January 17, 2014, 01:13:14 AM
For me a melody is an group of chords that are repeated Succesively , In a pop song the verse usually cointains an only melody , The chorus and Middle 8 the same.
You can to have too a melody with one chord but I prefer a melody longer.
Actually, there are many examples of amazing melodies with long chords or little to none variations: Anything Could Happen by Ellie Goulding is a great example.
Cool! Anyone else? :D
??
:D
#1 rule: There are no rules.
I second that.
Bohemian Rhapsody broke all rules. :)
Quote from: J_A24 on May 17, 2014, 11:25:52 PM
#1 rule: There are no rules.
Well guys, you know what we mean about "rules"...
I heard that Savan Kotecha for instance literally has this Excel document that he uses when writing. If a certain part of the song doesnt' "fulfill" the requirements or whatever in this document, he'll have to change it..
wow, fascinating! I suppose he has to be so precise the fit the lyrics to the melody.
Quote from: ununtitled on July 17, 2014, 08:53:41 PM
I heard that Savan Kotecha for instance literally has this Excel document that he uses when writing. If a certain part of the song doesnt' "fulfill" the requirements or whatever in this document, he'll have to change it..
Where did you hear this and is there any more info? That would be great to know further!
Quote from: ununtitled on July 17, 2014, 08:53:41 PM
I heard that Savan Kotecha for instance literally has this Excel document that he uses when writing. If a certain part of the song doesnt' "fulfill" the requirements or whatever in this document, he'll have to change it..
I need immediately that document! ;D
A thought: Claude Kelly, a pretty good melodist himself these days said Akon taught him this:
Try not to waste too many notes.
Look at -
1) Verse melody of "Who Knew" - a relatively Long melody, in terms of notes - but not ONE note is wasted
2) Verse melody of "Since U Been Gone" - and the Pre-chorus for the same song - Relatively shorter melodies in and of themselves - they're repeated more
- but the same tight fit, no wasted energy - Listeners (not only Zen Musicians like Max) can easily hear wasted stuff and generally don't get it
At least for Pop - you can write catchy music and still break those 2 rules, but they're a good guideline for modern day success
The above point may seem obvious as listeners. - But it seems like lots of us here are aspiring writers.
I've found the above tip really useful. Key is just to notice as you're doing it. And then try to say the same thing more efficiently.
Or take out the weak/un necessary -
Even for all those Gods like Max, they probably are aware of the fact that it's an Emotional/Brain process together usually - and even with all their
formulas/knowledge they probably write crap when the mood isn't right.