I really appreciate Cheiron ex writters staff and their talent, but I think you (and many others) are giving them more credit than they actually deserve. Re. music quality, how was it possible that after their mentor (and only really great and honest person in that team) Denniz Pop passed they continued to churn out hits. Is it some kind of manufacture or an art of music making. How can you find inspiration for an art after your role model dies. I say you can't, and you need not, because it is a manufacture and not an art. It is manufactured pop with strict rules to follow, 'inspired' by tweaked melodies from other (real) artists, same old couple of chords that always go well etc. What's so great about it? They always said it is a fun and that's because they are into it. I really doubt it was a fun after Denniz PoP depart. It was and it is strict and well crafted business, nothing more.
You want approval? Denniz as only enthusiast in that team learned Max rules, Max learned Shellback and Dr Luke rules, now Max and Shellback learned new guys rules. And guess what, all of them are miracously churning hit after hit. Shellback went from heavy unmelodic metal into melodic pop in months. Is it possible without getting to know a set of well crafted rules? No. It is a well crafted manufacture and not an art. There is really nothing special in it. What's special in the fact that they approached this business in a corporate and not an artistic way. And now that they have all contacts in the world they can do whatever they want, because of the sad state of music industry and media. Everything sounds the same and radio stations have no control of programming anymore. Now whole Sweden is hooked on, trying to churn worldwide hits, and they all sound same because they all use same old rules. Sad
I mean, what is artistic and special in using same 4 chords (because 'people like them'), change prosody rhythm in verses and chorus because of contrast, use same old song structure, recycle melody in verse and chorus so that listener easy remember it, nick one part of some silly melody from 80's and repeat it by following same set of rules (chorus line 1 and 2 symmetrical, line 1 and 3 symmetrical, 3x symmetrical and 4 different, finish chorus singing on the base note, put some big interval note as an surprise to make tension, put some hooks and repeat them every 7 second, make verse sound silly so that chorus sounds more great, put distinctive sound at song beginning so that listeners know in advance what song it is etc). I really cannot grasp how they manage to earn millions by following so silly rules that occupy one single sentence. And I cannot understand how do you appreciate that so much. I could also teach almost anyone all those rules. Only difference would be that their chorus melody wouldn't be so strong, but this is a matter of time invested in melody tweaking anyway.
I personally could churn a hit or two of same quality in a day (without investing additional time into production). You can do it on your own too. Use next set of chords: C, F, G, Am, Em, sometimes D and combine them (use chord wheel if you are not skilled). If there are more chords in a chorus set melody simpler and repeat it more, and vice versa. Put some 'surprise' chord to add tension. Then nick some great chorus from eighties (there are plenty of them), dissect it, take one bar melody and use above melody rules for repeating (you can 'borrow' up to 6 consecutive notes without consequences). You will have a hit, not worse than majority on Billboard Top 10. What's left is a good connection in the industry. Or you may tell them you are from Sweden, then they will listen thinking that you know what you are doing.
You may see by my nickname that I am a Dag Volle fan, but for others, I don't know. And all this started with Ace of Base success in USA, not Cheiron. Cheiron had co-written only 3 songs on that album. US public liked kinda fresh sound of euro-reggae rhythm on that album. And that credit goes to Ace of Base and not to Cheiron guys. Cheiron songs at that time were quite silly, listen to Papa Dee and LeilaK. God knows what would happen to their success if it weren't Steve Lund from Zomba that gave them opportunity of a century with BSB. You can hardly blow up such opportunity because public was ready for BSB style bands. They would buy it even if those songs were worse than they were (and they were well crafted songs).
I wish you a nice day :)
Quote from: Dagge on July 24, 2016, 12:32:46 PM
I wish you a nice day :)
I wish the same to you :)
Please, when you have a chance, let us hear one of those hits you could churn out in a day!
Too long.
Although you make some good points, I think you are overlooking one thing:
He's not in the business of art making. He's in the business of hit making. And at that he and his team are the best at what they do.
And a nice day to you too sir!
Wolf Cousin
@Wolf you are right, but it confirms my point. If they are involved in MAKING, thus it is some form of craft like in any other business. That means that anyone that learns those rules can make it. And that leads to the conclusion if anyone can make it, why admire it so much.
I will prove my point by posting a couple of potentially hit choruses which I will 'build' by listening to some real music. Give me a day or two because I am busy. And I will honestly say how much time did I use (usually 1hr per song), name of the song that 'inspired' me etc. And I don't find myself too talented for this. If I can do it, anyone can do it.
Quote from: Wolf Cousin on July 25, 2016, 09:47:19 AM
Although you make some good points, I think you are overlooking one thing:
He's not in the business of art making. He's in the business of hit making. And at that he and his team are the best at what they do.
And a nice day to you too sir!
Wolf Cousin
Another point, that you, Dagge, are overlooking:
Some people just LOVE this kind of music although they are aware of all the calculations :)
This annoys me so much! that people can think a great pop song is sooo easy to write and anyone can do it.
There are lots of songs that sound like Cheiron and they are okay, but they don't have the feel to them.
I understand if someone doesn't like Cheiron music, music is personal, that's fine.
I love Denniz Pop too.
For me, the Cheiron songs have something special to them, something I can't explain, some sort of feeling to them. Other people might think they're silly pop songs, but to me, they're unique.
Quote from: georg_e on July 24, 2016, 05:09:18 PM
Please, when you have a chance, let us hear one of those hits you could churn out in a day!
I'm also looking forward these hits.
Quote from: Rebecca on July 25, 2016, 12:32:45 PM
For me, the Cheiron songs have something special to them, something I can't explain, some sort of feeling to them. Other people might think they're silly pop songs, but to me, they're unique.
... and that's the way it is!
Quote from: Rebecca on July 25, 2016, 12:32:45 PM
...
For me, the Cheiron songs have something special to them, something I can't explain, some sort of feeling to them. Other people might think they're silly pop songs, but to me, they're unique.
OK let's translate this. Guys connected to Cheiron during last 20years, learned tricks and all make songs 'that have something special to them'. I wonder how all those different guys that learned stuff in different timeslots since 1995, how all they make songs that have something special. Isn't it abit silly to believe this?
To me it looks like they all learned same tricks, what was exactly my point in first post. It means that almost anyone can learn those tricks and make 'hits' (at least what labels and radio think are hits).
Quote from: Dagge on July 24, 2016, 12:32:46 PM
I personally could churn a hit or two of same quality in a day (without investing additional time into production).
Don't waste your time and energy on this thread. Either the guy has some issues or he's just making fun of the people on this forum, probably the first option.
As promised here I post several basic choruses that I made under 2 hr time. Basic channels only, Pro Tools free software, all played in same key because of easier comparison. Melodies 'inspired' by 'Shellback - hits from 2008 - 2016' youtube video. Inspired but not stolen (exactly like those guys do). Melodies not tweaked because I had no time. Compare those melodies with mine, only difference is their are slightly more tweaked to sound strong. OK, Shellback last year earned 4 mil. Here are 7 rough material 'hits'..now, where is my million ;D
https://soundcloud.com/dagge1/rhythmic-pop-1/s-T02kn
https://soundcloud.com/dagge1/rhythmic-pop-2
https://soundcloud.com/dagge1/rhythmic-pop-03
https://soundcloud.com/dagge1/rhythmic-pop-04
So, the amount of hubris here must exceed legal limits by far. Alright, so let's just quickly make this clear. I'm not saying these "ideas" are very bad, but you have clearly not understood a single thing about how Max and his disciples (also Rami etc. to some extent) write. There is zero hit factor in any of the snippets you just posted and really the simple answer to the statement that Shellback has made a lot of money: He is a very good songwriter! You are not, yet.
It's impossible to explain things to people who don't wanna understand, so I'm gonna try to avoid elaborating on why most of your statements in this thread are wrong. But basically, writing simple yet infectious melodies is incredible hard and you're definitely not the first (I include the 17 y/o me here...) to think that "everyone can do that". What makes me happy though is that you sir must be the first one I've come across who actually tried to "put up a shut up" and to no surprise failed miserably. Thank you for proving a previously hard to prove point! :)
Quote from: AlexanderLaBrea on July 27, 2016, 10:54:58 AM
So, the amount of hubris here must exceed legal limits by far. Alright, so let's just quickly make this clear. I'm not saying these "ideas" are very bad, but you have clearly not understood a single thing about how Max and his disciples (also Rami etc. to some extent) write. There is zero hit factor in any of the snippets you just posted and really the simple answer to the statement that Shellback has made a lot of money: He is a very good songwriter! You are not, yet.
It's impossible to explain things to people who don't wanna understand, so I'm gonna try to avoid elaborating on why most of your statements in this thread are wrong. But basically, writing simple yet infectious melodies is incredible hard and you're definitely not the first (I include the 17 y/o me here...) to think that "everyone can do that". What makes me happy though is that you sir must be the first one I've come across who actually tried to "put up a shut up" and to no surprise failed miserably. Thank you for proving a previously hard to prove point! :)
Well Alex, looks like you think that you learned alot at your age of 17. I was same at your age :) But I have surprise for you, two of my examples were actual hits of those guys, note for note :) Other two used exat note snippets like those in hits. And what determines hit potential? First 5-10 notes in a chorus. Looks like you have alot to learn ahead of you. Have a nice day
Quote from: Dagge on July 27, 2016, 12:41:09 PM
Well Alex, looks like you think that you learned alot at your age of 17. I was same at your age :) But I have surprise for you, two of my examples were actual hits of those guys, note for note :) Other two used exat note snippets like those in hits. And what determines hit potential? First 5-10 notes in a chorus. Looks like you have alot to learn ahead of you. Have a nice day
No, I was like YOU when I was 17 and ignorant. Luckily I have learnt a lot since then, partly by thoroughly analysing and writing music myself, and also by being in somewhat proximity of succesful songwriters. I could easily just turn your question around. IF you were able to write hits, why don't you have your millions? It's not hard to get the attention of major label people or A&R's. The hard part is actually writing hits. Just send your ideas or songs and cash in! :)
And I don't understand, what examples were "note for note" copies of Shellback hits? I don't recognize shit...
Quote from: AlexanderLaBrea on July 27, 2016, 03:50:28 PM
No, I was like YOU when I was 17 and ignorant. Luckily I have learnt a lot since then, partly by thoroughly analysing and writing music myself, and also by being in somewhat proximity of succesful songwriters. I could easily just turn your question around. IF you were able to write hits, why don't you have your millions? It's not hard to get the attention of major label people or A&R's. The hard part is actually writing hits. Just send your ideas or songs and cash in! :)
And I don't understand, what examples were "note for note" copies of Shellback hits? I don't recognize shit...
OK Alex, I like calmed down tone of your last post so in regard to your claims I may add this. Mr Ulvaeus from ABBA said that they worked 8hr per day yet managed to make only one good song per month. By using his words, all other material they wrote was 'worthless'. As a contrast, a doc that worked at Cheiron said that Max would complete a song in less than a hour. Now, two question. If that is pure talent, how come that ABBA didnt compose a hit per day instead of churning out 95% cr*p.
Second question, is Max thus 200x more talented than Ulvaeus & Andersson (8hr x 25 days)? I really doubt it. What's different is that ABBA managed to compose real great pop hits that all sounded different, while Cheironers used mathematic 'methods and formulas' so their hits all sound the same (https://goo.gl/PeQbZt and https://goo.gl/UC0O3E). Same structure, bass, chords, sounds, hooks. After market abandoned them they retweaked their methods slightly, added rock guitars and more silly melodies and voila!.. their hit songs again sound all the same.
If we know that first 5-7 notes of a chorus melody determine whether it has a hit potential or not, and if we know that average song melody has up to 7 different notes involved, it comes out that there are only 130,000 different melody combinations possible. And that is only 1% of all songs written and published. Which means that you cannot be too talented and find those special notes because all note progressions are already 'occupied'. You can olny 'nick' other's material in a smart way (which Cheironers mastered) and mould it your way. A guy that worket at Stock Aitken Waterman hit factory said that they regularly threw them all out of studio because it was a session to listen and 'borrow' from other hit songs.
Max is a talented top-liner (melody writer) and his working habits are better than most musician's have. That's about all there is. Nothing to admire. If you decided to spend 8hrs a day for one whole week to tweak every one of those 7 chorus notes, your (and mine) melodies would also start to sound 'expensive'. It is a business decision and that is my answer why I'm not into it. I am not close to politics (decision makers) so I better invest my time in some other business.
Re. those two hitsongs on my demo, they are from Cheiron opus, not Shellback's. Most of those hits sound unimpressive when accompanied in a basic way like I did. You have to have everyday music taste for 'silly' songs to be able to recognize a hit (which is more important than talent). I can smell a hit on a mile. Back then, when I first heard Max songs in one movie, I instantly knew they would be hits, not knowingly who it is or who wrote it (it were NSync and BSB).
P.S. If I were in Stockholm like you are, nothing would stop me from getting those millions.
With your attitude, you could live next DOOR to Max, and it wouldn't help get you "those millions" :-)
But really, you should be on Gearslutz.com not here-- it's full of pointless threads of people saying pop music is easy, and if they "wanted to, they could easily" blah blah blah. But you are providing some comedy here, so keep going if you want ;D
Quote from: georg_e on July 27, 2016, 06:01:09 PM
With your attitude, you could live next DOOR to Max, and it wouldn't help get you "those millions" :-)
But really, you should be on Gearslutz.com not here-- it's full of pointless threads of people saying pop music is easy, and if they "wanted to, they could easily" blah blah blah. But you are providing some comedy here, so keep going if you want ;D
Dude nothing personal but my attitude is responsible for 98% of worldwide success. Learn something well and believe into yourself. I remember Dr. Alban said how people ridiculed him and Denniz for their work, but they kept on, and now same people admire them. I understood that maybe I spoiled your fan community here with more realistic than allowed views. That's the way I was raised, to tell the truth. I apologize for that but anyway it will not change reality.
From your side, reaction could be to present counter arguments in a decent way instead of private labeling. Anyway I wish you a nice day.
Yawn.......Really, you're just too easy to waste any more time on. ::)
The best thing anyone in this forum can do is sit and watch how he makes his millions.
But certainly ambition it's not bad.
Quote from: Dagge on July 27, 2016, 05:26:48 PM
[...] Cheironers used mathematic 'methods and formulas' so their hits all sound the same (https://goo.gl/PeQbZt and https://goo.gl/UC0O3E). Same structure, bass, chords, sounds, hooks.
I mean there's no denying these songs are very similar but definitely not the same. With your statement you leave completely unmentioned how cool they were to put in the parallel major of the key in the verses of We've Got It Goin' On (rest of the song is in a minor key, even the mid8 which has the same melody as the verse - again, how cool is that!).
Quote from: B Steady on July 28, 2016, 12:09:39 PM
I mean there's no denying these songs are very similar but definitely not the same. With your statement you leave completely unmentioned how cool they were to put in the parallel major of the key in the verses of We've Got It Goin' On (rest of the song is in a minor key, even the mid8 which has the same melody as the verse - again, how cool is that!).
C'mon dude, of course it sounds good because it is nicked from classic composers standard chord progressions. Place where they seek 'inspiration' for chords (me too, ABBA did it also). JS Bach is endless treasure for nicking for example
Quote from: Dagge on July 28, 2016, 01:38:19 PM
C'mon dude, of course it sounds good because it is nicked from classic composers standard chord progressions. Place where they seek 'inspiration' for chords (me too, ABBA did it also). JS Bach is endless treasure for nicking for example
was this even the subject of my post? did I say they invented their own chord progressions or something? :o
Quote from: B Steady on July 28, 2016, 02:02:36 PM
was this even the subject of my post? did I say they invented their own chord progressions or something? :o
OK I'm over and out. No use :-X
I really appreciate Dagge's courage to come to the lion's den and say these things to light up a healthy discussion (Even though I'm not sure this was actually his intention). He knew all along he would have to take on a lot of ragging Cheiron/Max fans. I think he made a good point. It's very easy to get carried away when everybody is worshipping these guys like they are some kind of Greek Gods.
That being said, I don't agree with his point that these songs are easy to make. Even if he is right, even if Max and his team work with a secret formula, then they deserve a lot of credit for coming up with it.
Some of those ideas Dagge made could actually work. But even then, this is barely 5% of what makes a hit song a hit.
Quote from: Wolf Cousin on July 29, 2016, 10:55:22 AM
That being said, I don't agree with his point that these songs are easy to make. Even if he is right, even if Max and his team work with a secret formula, then they deserve a lot of credit for coming up with it.
I feel abit upset because it looks like I wanted to stir hostage discussion, which was not intention. In a more serious tone, you are absolutely right, hit songs are not easy to made. As it is not easy to be a good surgeon, a lawyer or even a good salesman. It is a craft which can be learned and those guys mastered it and deserve kudos and respect. An A&R guy form Billboard interview someone posted here said right thing, Max Martin is a clever businessman. I would add businessman with a talent for melodies.
All those MXM guys that came from different life environment make similar songs, melodies, arrangement etc. It is highly unlikey tha they all have talent for same thing (strong pop melodies Cheiron way). At Cheiron beginnings other member stayed over night to learn (read: copy) Max and Denniz skills. Looks like that is a learned skill, plus healthy dose of a talent. In US there are thousands of signed staff writers (many talented) that try to place songs with ever shrinking set of top performers. Yet all of them seem to have less talent and success than a small number of MXM bunch which have songs allover chart. Highly unlikely to me, it must be something else.
To simplify things, every member of this forum has an ear for strong melody and pop song, that's the reason they are here appreciating Max thing. It means that all of them have a chance to tweak first 5-10 tones of a chorus melody until they start to like it (which means melody is strong). Max doest it in an hour, they may need a week or a month, it doesn't really matter. Make a topic and post your melodies for others to see. You will be positively surprised. Only condition is 'kill your babies' as Max said, do not settle until it really sounds strong to you. When you nail it, you will hear it and you will know, that's for sure. In a week from now, I will exactly know which of my posted melodies have a chance (if any). Chorus melody isn't everything but it is main part of a hit, everything else is doable. You members may even establish your own 'MXM' (thus SWS) songwriting team here. Make songs you would like to hear. If upset, create here a new anonimous profile. Other members may give constructive critic and co-writing suggestions like those MSM guys do. If MXM earns 20 mil yearly and Shellback AB 10, you may be satisfied with a pale million :)
This, sir, was a great post! Thanks for that!
Connections over song quality — are Martin's words.
I can't find exact quote, but it was on this forum years ago.
All these "rules" are a myth, a false. A confusing of cause and effect. Martin is doing this mistake too — the reason why a lot of their songs are bad and unsuccessful.
Analyze already written and successful song is moving backwards. Operant conditioning. There are million other causes why the song became a hit or skipped.
(I prefer neuropsychology studies.)
Everything what iam hearing from you, is jealousy!
Where are your 23 Number 1 Hits and 70 Top Ten Hits?
I dont see them and i never heard a Hit from you!
So what are you trying to tell us and whats your point?
Pop Music is Pop Music, and it has his owen rules, you can learn!
Its always easy to analyse everything and tell people "OH that could be done by everyone"
So ask the people in the busniss, how hard it is, to make a Hit or a Worldwide Smash...
Everyone wants it and maybe 1% of them get it!
Maybe its easy, to write a song quick in a hour, wich has potential..
But the work around this song, to make it a Huge Hit Song, thats another story!
Shellback said in a Interveiw, that he had the same opinion about Popmusic, as you have
right now and he said, that it was the hardest thing for him, he ever made, to creat
a own great sounding Pop Song!
And by the way.. Thees examples you send.. Is that a fucking Joke?
Is that a "Hit" in your opinion?
Dude.. you have to learn a lot of things.. Belive me! :)
So please dont talk that kind of bullshit anymore!
Thank you! :)
Quote from: Dagge on July 27, 2016, 12:12:31 AM
As promised here I post several basic choruses that I made under 2 hr time. Basic channels only, Pro Tools free software, all played in same key because of easier comparison. Melodies 'inspired' by 'Shellback - hits from 2008 - 2016' youtube video. Inspired but not stolen (exactly like those guys do). Melodies not tweaked because I had no time. Compare those melodies with mine, only difference is their are slightly more tweaked to sound strong. OK, Shellback last year earned 4 mil. Here are 7 rough material 'hits'..now, where is my million ;D
https://soundcloud.com/dagge1/rhythmic-pop-1/s-T02kn
https://soundcloud.com/dagge1/rhythmic-pop-2
https://soundcloud.com/dagge1/rhythmic-pop-03
https://soundcloud.com/dagge1/rhythmic-pop-04
I thought you were full of shit but those actually aren't bad. We should talk sometime.
I mean I'm well aware that Quit Playin Games, As Long As You Love Me, and I Want It That Way are all basically the same song - each song in that list having progressively more complicated structure. However, those three songs I listed are BSB's undisputed most popular songs. I feel like the reason why so many combinations of their songs sound similar is because they spent a lot of time trying to come up with a new smash so they went "F*** it" and just reworked songs that they already knew were successful. And Quit Playing Games wasn't even hardly made by Max! Lundin did 75-80% of the production work on it and it's two copies (I have grown to have a view that Rami was the best Cheiron producer, followed by Lundin, then Max, and lastly Per - Denniz was in a whole other category with his own style of low pitch drum songs. Dag really was the ace of bass.)
I bet this guy here could write 10,000 songs in his life, some might even be hits on the radio one day, but NONE of them will be as good as Quit Playin Games. And if you listen to that song vocalless, the verses literally only have the drum rhythm and one back synth (the second incorporating the string instrument from the chorus) - the chorus itself only a simple quiet piano, 3 note quiet string combos, an encompassing high pitch back synth, a tambourine like percussion, and the drum melody. It's a very simple song. Could I, or this guy, or any 18 year old with a pen have written the lyrics? Most likely. But could I (or this guy, or basically anybody that isn't Kristian Lundin himself) produce something as good using only like 5 instruments with a powerful arrangement that doesn't sound overproduced and not even in a complicated fashion? The simple answer is hell to the f*** no. There's a reason why Cheiron's the best production company of all time, and it's basically that - all of them can make a classic that is basic as hell in retrospect. Even Per Magnusson though he really only had Walk On By and I Lay My Love On You.
No other producers I have heard have had such great songs using so little equipment. I've heard plenty of Queen instrumentals, and The Beatles, and Michael Jackson, and plenty of other lauded artists of yesteryear. None match Cheiron's efficiency.
And by the way, the songs that even Rami himself made after 2002 aren't even half as good as the ones he made during the Cheiron years. I made a custom tape of 22 Rami songs in reverse chronology (2014 - 1998. Track 1 was One Last Time and the last was BOMT) and my dad literally said "these just keep getting better." A tape made in REVERSE order.
Ain't that a b*tch.
Hahaha lol this thread is hilarious!! Dagge, your ideas are shit. Sorry to say.
Quote from: backgammonfiend on July 31, 2016, 09:04:49 AM
I bet this guy here could write 10,000 songs in his life, some might even be hits on the radio one day, but NONE of them will be as good as Quit Playin Games. And if you listen to that song vocalless, the verses literally only have the drum rhythm and one back synth (the second incorporating the string instrument from the chorus) - the chorus itself only a simple quiet piano, 3 note quiet string combos, an encompassing high pitch back synth, a tambourine like percussion, and the drum melody. It's a very simple song. Could I, or this guy, or any 18 year old with a pen have written the lyrics? Most likely. But could I (or this guy, or basically anybody that isn't Kristian Lundin himself) produce something as good using only like 5 instruments with a powerful arrangement that doesn't sound overproduced and not even in a complicated fashion? The simple answer is hell to the f*** no. There's a reason why Cheiron's the best production company of all time, and it's basically that - all of them can make a classic that is basic as hell in retrospect. Even Per Magnusson though he really only had Walk On By and I Lay My Love On You.
No other producers I have heard have had such great songs using so little equipment. I've heard plenty of Queen instrumentals, and The Beatles, and Michael Jackson, and plenty of other lauded artists of yesteryear. None match Cheiron's efficiency.
Some good points. But... I agree that Rami, Lundin and Savan are maybe even better than Max in arranging... but.. I agree that those guys learned their stuff well... but..
but... this isn't that hard or impossible to do... however hard some of you don't believe it. Fact is there weren't any producers so concentrated on a whole arr thing before them. Before Cheiron era arrangements were much simpler, with different agenda and purpose. Cheiron introduced well crafted arrangements that follow some rules...alot of classic composers chord progressions that were new to US market..and those rules are not that hard to decypher. Melody is the king, verse is very sparse, one or two instruments, chorus one or two more, strings included. Parts are un-melodic in order to not interfere with main melody. I have analyzed all this and it's nothing that hard to my opinion. Simple and always same sound sources, drums Korg TR + Fricke, Bass SE-1, other stuff Korg TR and Roland JV-2080, sometimes licks etc from E-mu module collection. They found their sound, but it's not that hard to analyze what's going on.
Re. Max, he records one hitsong per week, but anyway manages to have 'only' 2-3 hits per year on a top chart instead of 52. That's alot of misses. Oops.. ABBA were The masters, hard to copy and immitate. Every song of theirs was a hit. Cheiron are good craftsmen...and that's about it.
Re. my examples... some guys here are so opinionated that they didn't manage to recognize two songs that were actual hits. But it's ok guys, I spoiled your cult abit :) I listened Cheiron hits and made my own melodies and chords in a matter of 5-10 min for each example. Ten minutes vs weeks of tweaking every one of first 10 chorus notes. Real pros do 300 such starting points per year, finish 50, record 10 and make money of three (Max kills most of those 300 in his head already but his final outcome is similar). Guys..it is not easy but its's doable. I know a famous british producer that said to me, just 'borrow', get inspired and throw those ideas out and don't think. You never know which one will be hit. Listen to them after a week or two, then you will know.
P.S. you don't need to tell me whether it has hit potential or not. We all know a hit potential when we hear it (or do we?). It's only a matter of invested time into constructing those 10 note variations. That's the hardest part. You have to invest time and effort, and you have to believe that you can do it at the end.
yes, maybe it isn't that hard to do in theory, however actually getting it done is a skill too.
A lot of times in life, not only do you have to have the skill, but also be in the right place at the right time, like the songwriters in Cheiron were, but that doesn't take away from the hits they wrote. Yes, maybe there were other songwriters who could have written all these hits, learned these tricks as you say, but it was the Cheiron songwriters who actually achieved it.