Question for a published producer or songwriter or other music professional

[gm33]

Hi all,

A few questions for any commercial producer or songwriter out there.

What exactly do the liner credits mean?
Whose name goes first where it lists composers?
What does a producer actually do?

Does the writer of a pop song actually specify exactly what drums/instruments etc. will be used? I ask this because I've seen some Max Martin songs covered and the cover music has some different beats in it, but there are no new composers listed, just new producers. I think I'm really looking for the clarification between writer and producer.
Could someone be the sole composer of a pop song if all they did was write the melody/harmony line and leave everything up to the producer?


Thanks!

[clabbelito]

Whose name goes first where it lists composers?

If there's a group of song writers credited to the song, the general public usually can not tell who's written most of the song or who's written the melody and who's written the words.

Performance rights organizations (like ASCAP, BMI, PRS, GEMA or STIM) and publishers have this information, but it's usually kept secret from the public. I have worked at a performance rights organization. It was quite interesting to see how the songwriting royalties were divided among the songwriters. I can write some more about this if anyone's interested.

What does a producer actually do?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Record_producer

Does the writer of a pop song actually specify exactly what drums/instruments etc. will be used?  I ask this because I've seen some Max Martin songs covered and the cover music has some different beats in it, but there are no new composers listed, just new producers. I think I'm really looking for the clarification between writer and producer. Could someone be the sole composer of a pop song if all they did was write the melody/harmony line and leave everything up to the producer?

Yes. The song is basically just the lead melody and the chords. The rest is arrangement and production.

Other people here can probably elaborate on how the producer gets paid, bur usually they get a cash advance from the record company, percentage from future record sales, or a combination of the two.

An arranger is usually used mainly for live strings. The arranger can get minor songwriting royalties for arranging a song, or they just get a wad of cash.

Sometimes, if - say - a instrumentalist (non-songwriter) has come up with a riff that turns out to be very important to the song, the writer(s) can award the instrumentalist with a songwriting credit.

Many people don't know this, but anyone anywhere in the world can record a cover version of any song, release it and sell it - without asking permission from the songwriter. You only need permission if you change the lyrics or want to write a translated lyric for the song. Usually then you ask permission from the publishing company who co-owns the song with the writer.

Songwriting royalties are collected from all public airing across the world. Radio stations pay the performance rights organizations money in return for being allowed to play the song. The performance rights organization sends the money - minus their fee - to the songwriters.

Usually songwriters are members of their country's performance rights organization (for Americans BMI or ASCAP; for Brits PRS; for Germans GEMA; for Australians APRA; for the French SACEM, for Swedes STIM, etc.). Some songwriters, however, choose to join another country's performance rights organization. You can only be a member of one organization at a time.

[Rebecca]

That's all really interesting

Whose name goes first where it lists composers?

If there's a group of song writers credited to the song, the general public usually can not tell who's written most of the song or who's written the melody and who's written the words.

Performance rights organizations (like ASCAP, BMI, PRS, GEMA or STIM) and publishers have this information, but it's usually kept secret from the public. I have worked at a performance rights organization. It was quite interesting to see how the songwriting royalties were divided among the songwriters. I can write some more about this if anyone's interested.

Yes, I'm interested in hearing more. I thought that the first person listed was the main songwriter, or sometimes I've heard that the first person listed composed the music and the second person composed the lyrics.

Is it more common that with 2 songwriters, one will write the music, the other write the lyrics or will they both contribute to music and lyrics?
and then how does it work when there are 3 or more songwriters?

[clabbelito]

I thought that the first person listed was the main songwriter, or sometimes I've heard that the first person listed composed the music and the second person composed the lyrics.

It might be the case that the songwriters state in which order they should be credited on an album, but there's really no way of knowing who gets the highest percentage - if you don't work at their publisher or at a performing rights society, that is.

The standard distribution of songwriting royalties is as follows. The publisher gets 1/3 (which is why many writers start their own publishing companies). The songwriters share the remaining 2/3 equally.

Many songs are "in dispute", which means the claims of the various parties exceed 100 %. Until the dispute is settled, no songwriting royalties are paid out. (I guess it works the same way with record sales royalties.)

In the case of rap songs, for instance, songs are often in dispute because of the samples. The writer of the sampled song (and their publishing company) might claim 20 % of the songwriting royalties. When their are many such claims - which isn't unusual - the claims exceed 100 %. Negotiations follow between the rapper's publisher and the sampled songwriter's publisher. Sometimes the rapper and his publisher gets nothing because of all the samples.

Sometimes a song is ruled by court (a regular court) to plagiarize another song. There are no set rules around how much or what exactly you can steal from another song. But if the court rules that Song B completely plagiarizes Song A, the writers and publishers of Song A will replace the writers of Song B in all future credits. Note: only the song-writing royalties, not the lyric-writing royalties (unless the lyrics also are the same). In an recent case, Joe Satriani claims Coldplay have stolen their song Viva la vida from a song of his: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvB9Pj9Znsw It will be interesting to see what the court says.

Many bands feel that writing a hit melody is much more difficult than writing a decent lyric. So why should the lyric writer get as much as the melody writer? A valid point, so many bands use another distribution than the standard 50/50.

Sometimes, if a writer approaches an artist with a killer song, the artist and his/her publishing company can demand a songwriting credit to record the song. This is the case with all (or at least nearly all) of Elvis Presley's songwriting credits. The songwriters usually didn't mind giving up part of the songwriting royalties because they would still get more than had another artist recorded the song.

Is it more common that with 2 songwriters, one will write the music, the other write the lyrics or will they both contribute to music and lyrics?
and then how does it work when there are 3 or more songwriters?

You can't really say. It's very different. But what often happens nowadays is that a songwriter approaches the producer of an artist's album with a song. The producer spices up the production (not the melody) of the song in return for a songwriting percentage.

[clabbelito]

When it comes to rock bands, most of them have just one or two writers who don't share their songwriting royalties with the rest of the band. They have to settle with sales royalties (which can be quite small percentages) and money from playing live gigs.

Sometimes the rest of the band get a small share of the song-writing royalties as "arrangers". For instance, the bass player can get 0.5 per cent for coming up with bass line, if it isn't very important for the song - then he might get more.

[Rebecca]

Thanks Clabbelito, that's all very interesting. I didn't know that the publisher got 1/3.

wow, Coldplay song is definitely the same as Joe Satriani, yes that will be very interesting to see what the court says

[nshinnosuke]

my dad owns a record label (local recording/publishing company without international artists) and sometimes he is referred as a 'producer' here by the media..He's not involved in any songwriting progress and he's got no knowledge about songwriting at all besides choosing and deciding what's the best, he studied graphic design during his college years... Right now I'm taking visual communication design and I'm still a freshman so it won't be so hard for me to change my major to music production but I have neither experience or knowledge about music... How hard it is and how long does it take to learn it all from the very beginning?? Sorry if this is off-topic