In an interview I saw on youtube (and I think this was posted here before) Arnthor Birgisson talks about Max's formula (actually it was D. Pop's that Max learned): Never use more than three melodic parts in the song. If more than 3, fix it. Recycle parts of verse or parts of song in chorus. So when chorus comes you already heard part of it.
What do you guys think this means? Would really love to discuss and figure out this magical formula that Max has!
Can you post the interview here?
I don't think it makes sense, just three part can be boring.
But it's true that at least 2 -including different arrangements/programming- usually work.
Why use verse in chorus? It's only 2 parts, not even 3.
Quote from: bugmenot on May 13, 2014, 08:07:54 PM
Why use verse in chorus? It's only 2 parts, not even 3.
The bridge/middle 8 with different chords.
Yeah, that's a good mindset to have. It keeps the song cohesive and effective and each part is different enough so that it keeps things flowing and entertaining.
I think it's important to use the factor of familiarity in a pop song. Max sometimes uses the same parts in different sections of the song, but switches around the rhythm, the phrasing or adds something to the melody. It kinda makes it easier to understand for the listener. "Whataya Want From Me" is an example, "It's All Your Fault" by Pink too.
Another example I can find is Chris Martin from Coldplay, he often puts some part of the chorus in the verses. Like in the song "Paradise", the chorus is in the first verse.
Then again, there are no rules, whatever works works. As long as it sounds right.
I've tried some times unintentionally to fit a melody I wrote in a verse in a chorus and doesn't work for me at least... but I agree with you.
Maybe I should try again...
It's very interesting , a pop song must have harmony and while it has less different parts it's more easy , Genius.
Quote from: j.fco.morales on May 13, 2014, 08:02:23 PM
Can you post the interview here?
I don't think it makes sense, just three part can be boring.
But it's true that at least 2 -including different arrangements/programming- usually work.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6jkDdc_b8I
Some more info from various articles. Would love to discuss this further with the songwriters here. Especially the syllable counting thing. Let's discuss!
In writing lyrics, McKee adheres to the Swedish school of pop songwriting championed by Max Martin. Words are chiefly there to serve the melody. "It's very mathematical," McKee explained. "A line has to have a certain number of syllables, and the next line has to be its mirror image." I asked for an example, and she sang, "California girls, we're unforgettable, Daisy Dukes, bikinis on top," then said, "If you add one syllable, or take it away, it's a com- pletely different melody to Max. I can write something I think is so clever, but if it doesn't hit the ear right then Max doesn't like it."
My comment: This is what I'd like to know about most. I've heard some writers out of the Luke and Max camp mention this before. What exactly do you think they mean? Also, are there specific melodies they are using with these syllables? What do you think?
Shellback quote: "I quickly learned how a pop song is written. To simplify. To use the same melody through out the song but perhaps shift the octaves or just make slightly changes."
My comment: This goes back to what Arnthor talked about. Using the same melodies. Any one see examples of this in any of the big Max hits? Please post if you do! One example I saw was the "oh-oh-oh" in JLo's new song "First Love." It appears in the verses and hook.
I think these things give some more insight into what makes Max special.
Quote from: sweetmelody on June 21, 2014, 05:51:57 PM
Some more info from various articles. Would love to discuss this further with the songwriters here. Especially the syllable counting thing. Let's discuss!
In writing lyrics, McKee adheres to the Swedish school of pop songwriting championed by Max Martin. Words are chiefly there to serve the melody. "It's very mathematical," McKee explained. "A line has to have a certain number of syllables, and the next line has to be its mirror image." I asked for an example, and she sang, "California girls, we're unforgettable, Daisy Dukes, bikinis on top," then said, "If you add one syllable, or take it away, it's a com- pletely different melody to Max. I can write something I think is so clever, but if it doesn't hit the ear right then Max doesn't like it."
My comment: This is what I'd like to know about most. I've heard some writers out of the Luke and Max camp mention this before. What exactly do you think they mean? Also, are there specific melodies they are using with these syllables? What do you think?
Shellback quote: "I quickly learned how a pop song is written. To simplify. To use the same melody through out the song but perhaps shift the octaves or just make slightly changes."
My comment: This goes back to what Arnthor talked about. Using the same melodies. Any one see examples of this in any of the big Max hits? Please post if you do! One example I saw was the "oh-oh-oh" in JLo's new song "First Love." It appears in the verses and hook.
I think these things give some more insight into what makes Max special.
I belive Shellback is talking about instrumentals strictly there.
Quote from: max_martin_fan on June 21, 2014, 09:21:09 PM
I belive Shellback is talking about instrumentals strictly there.
No, it's about melodies. Why would you shift octaves in the instrumental track? Never happens.
Why? Counterpoint.
To add a different flavour to the melodies.
Quote from: sweetmelody on June 21, 2014, 11:14:48 PM
No, it's about melodies. Why would you shift octaves in the instrumental track? Never happens.
Well... just listen to the stuff Shellback produced, on top of my mind if you hear Raise Your Glass you can hear the same guitar riff over and over, doubled, one of those takes is shifted up an octave and panned. The same with Teenage Dream, I kissed a girl, etc...
Yes, but let's analyze the quote:
"I quickly learned how a pop song is written. To simplify. To use the same melody through out..."
It says "written." If he was talking about the track then it should have read: "how a pop song is produced." Also, referring to "the same melody" is once again sounding like a reference to writing. Generally you don't refer to the track as the melody (although I do concede that the track can and does have melodic parts). Anyway, reading the article it has more context. You guys could be right, but I interpret the quote as a reference to songwriting. Either way, not trying to start a fight. ;)
Quote from: sweetmelody on June 22, 2014, 02:29:38 AM
Yes, but let's analyze the quote:
“I quickly learned how a pop song is written. To simplify. To use the same melody through out..."
It says "written." If he was talking about the track then it should have read: "how a pop song is produced." Also, referring to "the same melody" is once again sounding like a reference to writing. Generally you don't refer to the track as the melody (although I do concede that the track can and does have melodic parts). Anyway, reading the article it has more context. You guys could be right, but I interpret the quote as a reference to songwriting. Either way, not trying to start a fight. ;)
Yes, totally.
A nice example of the same melody could be ET - Katy Perry by Max, where you have the verse melody in the beginning of the chorus.
I belive he uses the same melody an octave higher for the sole propuse of creating tension and solving it. The tessitura in the voice can really help to achive it. It works as long as you have a nice prechorus that differs from it.
Quote from: max_martin_fan on June 22, 2014, 02:43:31 AM
Yes, totally.
A nice example of the same melody could be ET - Katy Perry by Max, where you have the verse melody in the beginning of the chorus.
I belive he uses the same melody an octave higher for the sole propuse of creating tension and solving it. The tessitura in the voice can really help to achive it. It works as long as you have a nice prechorus that differs from it.
Good example. The bolded part I think is the whole point of this trick. I think the chorus explodes a lot bigger with this trick.
Quote from: j.fco.morales on June 21, 2014, 11:40:41 PM
Why? Counterpoint.
To add a different flavour to the melodies.
adding to that, check out ,Tell me why, by Jessica Folker, the first chorus and last, you hear a difference in pitch
Guys, remember that this recycling of melody bits can be more or less obvious. An obvious way to do it would be to put an entire hook-line octaved down in the verse (like "Whataya Want From Me") but it could also be parts of a hook-line in different phrasing or with a different instrument.
I have come to use a method where I, in the writing process where basic chorus and verse melodies are sorted out, try to recycle bits (or pre-cycle, i.e using chorus bits in the verses) and make sure there are spaces between recycling.
Just like the verses are spaces between recycled choruses, a bridge could be a space between a pre-cycled chorus and the actual chorus.
This kind of varied repetition really goes through the whole music production process from writing to arranging etc. Drum patterns, for example, usually just go about their business but are varied with fills, when the amount of repetition is "just right".
Recycling and pre-cycling plays a huge part in making a song easy to remember. And this applies to much more than music since humans in general find patterns exciting. When styling your home for example, a good rule is to stick to just one or very few colours, and using similar coloured wood on the floor as in your furniture is pleasing to the eye.
Quote from: the3rd on September 24, 2014, 10:25:43 PM
Guys, remember that this recycling of melody bits can be more or less obvious. An obvious way to do it would be to put an entire hook-line octaved down in the verse (like "Whataya Want From Me") but it could also be parts of a hook-line in different phrasing or with a different instrument.
I have come to use a method where I, in the writing process where basic chorus and verse melodies are sorted out, try to recycle bits (or pre-cycle, i.e using chorus bits in the verses) and make sure there are spaces between recycling.
Just like the verses are spaces between recycled choruses, a bridge could be a space between a pre-cycled chorus and the actual chorus.
This kind of varied repetition really goes through the whole music production process from writing to arranging etc. Drum patterns, for example, usually just go about their business but are varied with fills, when the amount of repetition is "just right".
Recycling and pre-cycling plays a huge part in making a song easy to remember. And this applies to much more than music since humans in general find patterns exciting. When styling your home for example, a good rule is to stick to just one or very few colours, and using similar coloured wood on the floor as in your furniture is pleasing to the eye.
Great post.
Great thread from another site:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/songwriting/951308-max-martin-dr-luke-counting-syllables.html
QuoteWorking with Luke is different because Luke comes from the Max Martin school where they spend three or four days on the melody, then they put words to it. Ninety-five percent of our songs is the first thing that came to mind. We make music off of feeling and Luke makes music off of science. It's a formula. We would fight and argue. Most people in the room with Luke are like, 'Man, we're working with Luke!' We're like 'I don't give a fuck how much Number Ones you got. I ain't doing that bullshit!'
http://www.rollingstone.com/music/features/r-city-two-caribbean-brothers-20-year-journey-from-poverty-to-the-top-ten-20151102 (http://www.rollingstone.com/music/features/r-city-two-caribbean-brothers-20-year-journey-from-poverty-to-the-top-ten-20151102)
Quote from: bugmenot on November 03, 2015, 03:48:28 PM
http://www.rollingstone.com/music/features/r-city-two-caribbean-brothers-20-year-journey-from-poverty-to-the-top-ten-20151102 (http://www.rollingstone.com/music/features/r-city-two-caribbean-brothers-20-year-journey-from-poverty-to-the-top-ten-20151102)
Lol, I wouldn't call it science, more like high standards and perfectionism.
Wasn't it 3 ideally . . but 4 at most?
I put the quotes together from Arnthor and Andres Carlsson and we covered this topic in depth on another thread with additions from others:
http://www.swedishsongs.de/smf/index.php?topic=3091.0
Quote from: soundoffhear on August 05, 2015, 07:50:08 AM
Mind you, these are all off the top of my head and by no means an in depth study. These examples are rare in that they have mostly more than 2 note runs in which the intervals of the melodies from one song are replicated in another. The whole point here is showing that intervals that work are recycled for other songs. And the fact that we can see them so blatently used as first lines of chorus and chorus wrap ups is not so common. The trick as I said that most composers do is to use intervals sparingly here and there as to disguise them.
There are advanced techniques that I'm sure he is using and has practiced in his years of crafting. These techniques include taking the arc of a melodic line from one really good song and carving out everything except the notes that land on the strong beats (1 and 3 and the pickup prior to 1 again) then filling out the intervals around that skeleton. It is a case by case basis. At the end of the day these practices are for professional songwriters to keep their songs juiced and stay relevant year after year. You can just write songs off of instinct. And that is usually where the germ of an idea will still be used by people like Max, he then will start applying the techniques to flesh it out.
The truth about melodic math is Max Martin doesn't do anything that other composers don't. He is just more dedicated and uses all of the songwriting practices (matching syllable cadences, giving upbeat production to minor melody, tweaking intervals to boost the song, trimming the number of sections and moving parts to just the essential). He in fact says that there is no formula, pop songwriting is very difficult and he just works harder than a lot of other songwriters.
Backstreet - Shape of my heart/Celine - That's the way it is
first line chorus "looking back"/first line chorus "when you want"
end chorus "shape of my heart"/end chorus "that's the way it is"
BONUS I WANT IT THAT WAY BRIDGE ("From the way that it used to be, yeah")/Celine "I know what you're going through, yeah"
Avril - What the Hell/ P!nk - U + Ur Hand/Cosgrove - Oh Oh
Avril verse "making out with your friend/P!nk verse"know that it's going down"
Avril verse "messing with your head"/Cosgrove prechorus "why don't we make a move"/P!nk prechorus "put his hands on me"
P!nk chorus "You don't wanna mess with me tonight"/Cosgrove chorus "If you think I'll cry for you tonight"/Avril chorus "save me, baby, baby"
BONUS Katy HOT N COLD "someone call a doctor"/Avril What the Hell "If you love me, if you hate me"
Katy - One that Got Away/Backstreet - I Just Want You to Know
first line verse "summer after highschool"/first line verse "looking at your picture"
first line chorus "in another life"/first line chorus "i just want you to know"
chorus "we keep all the promises"/chorus "some days we make it through"
BONUS Kelly first line of chorus "Since U been gone"/Backstreet first line of chorus "I just want you to know"
Britney - U Drive Me Crazy/Backstreet - Larger than Life/Bon Jovi - It's My Life
The Britney melody only differs in that the scale was changed so that the 7th was not flattened (The songs came out within the same week. So probably being written around the same time, the skeleton of one was probably used for the other and he just raised the 7th in Lucky to not mimick the Larger than Life melody too much)
Backstreet verse "I'mma run and hide when you're screaming"/Bon Jovi prechorus "I ain't gonna be another face in"
Britney end of chorus "It feels so right"/Bon Jovi chorus "Heart is like an open highway"
Britney chorus thinking of you keeps me... "up all night"/Bon Jovi end chorus..."it's my life"
Britney prechorus "everytime you look at me"/Backstreet prechorus "all of our time's spent"/BONUS Britney OOPS! I DID IT AGAIN prechorus "Cause to lose all my senses"
Ke$ha - Blow/Britney - 3
"blow"/"180 degrees and I'm caught in between"
Tao Cruz - Dynamite/Usher - Scream
"saying ay-oh"/"scream yea-ah"
Katy - California Gurls/Jessie J - Domino
"You could travel the world"/"Every second is a highlight"
I'll leave the final two examples for someone else to have fun with. They are two of the easiest comparisons, you can use my method of quoting the intervals if you like!
Backstreet - The Call/Britney - Overprotected/N Sync - It's Gonna Be Me
Katy - Hot n Cold/Kelly - My Life Would Suck