I read the new interview that was posted here that Max gave, about his collab with Dr Luke - Now I GET that Max is a melodic genius, and most likely has contributed great melodies to
most of their collabs - BUT in that article Max mentioned that when they were all writing TEENAGE DREAM, that Luke got inspired all of a sudden and hummed/sang the melody to the entire song in like 1 pass - and Max saw how good it was and turned on his "dictaphone"
Now I know that the lyrics for the most part are Bonnie's / Katy's for that song, and the track I'm 99.9% sure is Luke's - so the fact that Max is credited as a writer for the song confirms
something that another person brought up here once before - that even though he IS a genius, he's been listed as CO - WRITER on songs when apparently his contribution was of a
minimal nature - THAT's ALL I'm saying - NOT taking away from him - BUT this makes me rethink songs like "Wide Awake", "Who Knew" - and others, I had always thought that since he was credited he came up with MAJOR melodic ideas, like pre choruses and choruses - , now maybe thinking for some (we'll never know which) it might of been minimal
On "Part of Me" , I believe the entire top line tune was Max (I heard Luke say the story in an interview) -
NOT Saying this to doubt him, JUST wanna open up an interesting discussion
Quote from: RoyFan on July 15, 2014, 06:45:52 PM
and the track I'm 99.9% sure is Luke's -
I was wrong on this, apparently Benny Blanco added a lot of the really beautiful Synthesizer moments on the track - which started as him and Luke jamming,
Luke on Guitar/Bass Benny on Synth
Hi Royfan, where is this interview at? I read all that I can get my hands on but I don't recall this one. I'd be great to look at it.
Thanks in advance.
here you go man -hehe it was actually on this site - I'm always doing new searches - Yahoo is actually MUCH better than Google for this type of thing - so you should use that
http://www.swedishsongs.de/smf/index.php?topic=956.0
and here's a very good one with Benny Blanco , he discusses his process with Luke on 2 good songs
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun12/articles/benny-blanco.htm
What is the question or discussion in all of this? lol
Quote from: RoyFan on July 15, 2014, 08:55:39 PM
here you go man -hehe it was actually on this site - I'm always doing new searches - Yahoo is actually MUCH better than Google for this type of thing - so you should use that
http://www.swedishsongs.de/smf/index.php?topic=956.0
Thanks, I actually searched this forum and not Google. I guess I've should looked better. And thanks for the Yahoo tip.
Well, it's not that bad.
It's like when I said that Max wasn't that impressive at music production, but great at toplining.
Quote from: j.fco.morales on July 16, 2014, 01:40:56 AM
Well, it's not that bad.
It's like when I said that Max wasn't that impressive at music production, but great at toplining.
but does the new info on Teenage dream make you wonder about other of their collabs? that perhaps Max's contribution was minimal?
Quote from: J_A24 on July 15, 2014, 10:42:11 PM
What is the question or discussion in all of this? lol
just that you mentioned that they each had melodic tendencies, and it was very easy to distinguish their contributions to the songs, this seems to kinda go against those tendencies, so it was very interesting..
Oh Ok,
Just clarifying, we discussed melodic tendencies, but it has nothing to do with what each of them actually brought to the song. Now what I can guarantee you, is that they do both have tendencies and "go to" references when it comes to toplining. I gave you some wild guesses on some songs that you asked about, but you can't really accurately guess who did what in each song only based on that because there are just way too many variables in music and I don't know any songwriter (except the bad ones) who exclusively writes songs based on tendencies and old references from their own repertoire. The only info that I had regarding who did what in specific was a couple of songs from Britney and "About You Now". I would say that based of their tendencies, "Teenage Dream" does sound like something that Luke would come up with melodically for the most part. I maybe thought Max was involved in the bridge since it's a bit more melodic, but while they both have tendencies, it doesn't mean that they wont come up with something different.
Also, writing credits don't stop at toplining and writing lyrics. Anything you compose in the song, from the chord progression to vocal harmonies to a 1/16 guitar repeated note will get you writing credits. So Max or Luke could be credited in a song when they barely did anything hands-on in the song itself. Take for example "Dare (La La La)" by Shakira.
I would say that most songs that Luke and Max do together in the present, Luke is the leader of the session. Meaning that he has the last word on everything. He will just pick what's best for the vision he has on the song and that's it.
If you wanna know who did what in specific songs, you should try to tweet Luke or something. :P
And to answer the question of the thread, which I suppose is "How does the possibility of Max Martin having minimal input on your favourite songs in which he's been credited on make you feel?"
I answer: I already knew that, it doesn't lessen my view of him at all. Is he the perfect writer/producer? No. Every idea he has is not always amazing, but he has the ability, experience and work ethic to go beyond that once in a while. Which is already more than most writers in the business.
Him, Luke and Peter Svensson are the best topliners in the bussiness in my opinion.
Quote from: J_A24 on July 16, 2014, 04:11:50 AM
Him, Luke and Peter Svensson are the best topliners in the bussiness in my opinion.
Good stuff! Btw it may still be possible on the Bridge of "Teenage Dream" (that it was more Max) , because in the interview Max mentions
Luke's sorta "one take" melody moment - I think as from the beginning and then "including the chorus" - JUST in case you're curious :-)
Oh and also I've been reading about and listening to songs Claude Kelly was involved in, and from all that I'd guess that he actually (as opposed
to Katy Perry, Cathy Dennis , etc) DOES contribute important melodies to a large part of songs he's involved in , sometimes the whole melody
"Like I Never Left" - Whitney Houston, tremendous topline and lyric
I agree: Max is one of the best at toplining.
He does an amazing work building melodies and playing with unusual pitching.
In the Teenage Dream case, I think Katy and Bonnie especially deserves the credit on the lyrics and the melodies in the verses.
The chorus is SO Max Martin. Luke and Benny made an impressive work on the production.
I agree with J_A24: Luke and Max are the kind of people that think about the process: the way the song should reflect an important part of the artist itself, making it work as a whole.
And J_A24: when you talk about Peter Svensson, are you talking about the Cardigans amazing songs? Because he's good at pop, but he's AMAZING with The Cardigans.
Quote from: j.fco.morales on July 16, 2014, 08:30:08 AM
I agree: Max is one of the best at toplining.
He does an amazing work building melodies and playing with unusual pitching.
In the Teenage Dream case, I think Katy and Bonnie especially deserves the credit on the lyrics and the melodies in the verses.
The chorus is SO Max Martin. Luke and Benny made an impressive work on the production.
I agree with J_A24: Luke and Max are the kind of people that think about the process: the way the song should reflect an important part of the artist itself, making it work as a whole.
And J_A24: when you talk about Peter Svensson, are you talking about the Cardigans amazing songs? Because he's good at pop, but he's AMAZING with The Cardigans.
J FCO : According to the interview wit Max, (posted here by someone) , it was actually Luke's melody for the verses (and seemingly the chorus as well) - It's in the first
part of the thread I started -
Quote from: j.fco.morales on July 16, 2014, 08:30:08 AM
And J_A24: when you talk about Peter Svensson, are you talking about the Cardigans amazing songs? Because he's good at pop, but he's AMAZING with The Cardigans.
I think he's amazing in general, I loved his work with the Cardigans, specially in the "Long Gone Before Daylight" album. His style is quite similar to Max's, I think he'll establish himself as one of the top songwriters soon.
Fascinating discussion, I would love to know who wrote which part out of every song. I had forgotten about that interview with Max where he described the writing of Teenage Dream. Well, Max must have done something in that song to get a songwriting credit. As much as I love Dr Luke, his songs are always better when he collaborates with Max, so it makes me believe that Max is the special ingredient, or maybe Max pushes Dr Luke to the next level.
I absolutely love Peter Svensson too.
Nice read about the process for Maroon 5 - Daylight where Max is credited as a writer too.
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/steve_duin/index.ssf/2012/12/steve_duin_lakeridge_grad_sam.html
thanks, that is a nice read.
Max is usually the guy who writes the hook, but not always. And there's nothing wrong with that. Collaboration is not about ego, it's about the best idea winning. Max is smart enough to know that and it's work for him. I understand the question being raised here but it doesn't diminish what Max has done in his career. He is clearly the most successful songwriter of the past 20 years and one of the greatest of all time.
Max is the biggest Genius writing melodies , Although he doesn't write anyone part , I'm sure he influences to the other composers with his ideas.
Quote from: sweetmelody on July 20, 2014, 12:47:10 AM
. I understand the question being raised here but it doesn't diminish what Max has done in his career. He is clearly the most successful songwriter of the past 20 years and one of the greatest of all time.
I wasn't doubting his melodic ability at all..or his "hook" ability . He's written a lot of songs on his own that prove he can do that. I guess I was just surprised cause I had always assumed that in his collabs with Luke he ALWAYS wrote an important part of the melody. They've probably almost outwritten Lennon-McCartney in terms of hits by now, so I knew obviously he couldn't POSSIBLY have written EVERY hook, and Luke didn't either.
I know all about collabs, and that it never works with an ego, cause I'm a songwriter myself. I think I had in my mind the thought that he wrote the Teenage Dream chorus for soooo long, that I was a bit shocked to find out he didn't.
Another one I'd LOOOVE to know is the chorus of "Domino" - At first I was sure it was Claude Kelly or Max's melody - but now that I play more of Luke's melodies on my guitar, I think it could have been him as well. It has some of the intervalistic qualities.
Lastly, another little quirk with this whole subject for me is - I STILL think of Luke as a Jazz Guitarist TURNED songwriter - (he even said it himself, he was the guitarist at Saturday Night Live for all those years.) And I don't think there's been many Jazz Guitarists, who at age 30 start to write pop melodies so well.
Genius pop melody writers usually internalize that stuff from a young age. It's still very odd to me that Luke started at such a late age writing pop and can do it as if he's done it his whole life.
To me that's called loving what you do and working harder than everyone. One of the things that struck me the most when I came back from L.A. is that a lot of people who admired Luke's work never really thought about him as being arguably the hardest working person in the music industry.
He didn't go from jazz guitarist to mega-songwriter overnight. And coming from a jazz background doesn't mean that he wasn't supposed to become pop's most prolific producer/writer.
He loves pop music, he's passionate about "winning" in the charts and has had a lot of experience writing pop songs with great songwriters. His tastes in melody evolved thanks to that and that's pretty much all it takes to come up with great results; High standards. His vision of what is a good record is what truly takes him there. And lots of work, well now a bit less because he has a lot of people working for him.
It's all about the evolution of your standards, forget the background.
Quote from: J_A24 on July 24, 2014, 04:17:22 AM
To me that's called loving what you do and working harder than everyone. One of the things that struck me the most when I came back from L.A. is that a lot of people who admired Luke's work never really thought about him as being arguably the hardest working person in the music industry.
I had that impression as well. He has a strong burning fire in him. You need that emotional/physical spark as well as the
craftsmanship - And since he's done so much, what you say makes lots of sense.
And this last part I don't say to sound criticizing, but I also had that notion cause he seems tired looking in a lot of the photos.
A certain subtle quality in the eye, not blatant, but I've seen it on other people as well. I get that for people like him, there's NOTHING
he'd rather do than create. But I just hope he's at the point where he can take a break when he needs it.
In an interview, he had said ("we all could use a vacation") - that's the only reason I doubt whether or not he's gotten to the point
of allowing himself one
Quote from: RoyFan on July 24, 2014, 06:09:33 AM
I had that impression as well. He has a strong burning fire in him. You need that emotional/physical spark as well as the
craftsmanship - And since he's done so much, what you say makes lots of sense.
And this last part I don't say to sound criticizing, but I also had that notion cause he seems tired looking in a lot of the photos.
A certain subtle quality in the eye, not blatant, but I've seen it on other people as well. I get that for people like him, there's NOTHING
he'd rather do than create. But I just hope he's at the point where he can take a break when he needs it.
In an interview, he had said ("we all could use a vacation") - that's the only reason I doubt whether or not he's gotten to the point
of allowing himself one
Oh I didn't take it as criticism towards him, I just find that sometimes people who look up to someone tend to glamorize their job. I know at some point I was guilty of that. When you said that you found it a bit odd that Luke went from jazz to pop and was able to become amazing at melodies, I don't think it's odd. I think his journey started way before that, in his room, listening to his favourite songs and trying to play them on guitar. I don't think you're born with the ability to be amazing at melodies. You have certain aptitudes and you chose to hone your skills towards something. I don't think it's anything magical, it's just experience. I think pop music is mostly about what sounds right rather than what sounds good.